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Old 06-10-2008, 09:07 AM   #1
Boilermaker
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Default Calzaghe v Toney

I know that these are two current boxers, but there would be great interest from a historical perspective in the outcome of this match. Toney is campaining solidly in the heavy division and he has a heavyweight chin and is competive with the heavys. When in shape, he is a very good light heavyweight or super middleweight. Toney is about to rematch a former lineal heavyweight champion who he drew with once before. If we assume that they fight a close fight again, and the overweight Toney has not lost too much more due to age and poor condition, how would he go against Calzaghe.

Calzaghe is a good supermiddleweight, but being honest, he really isnt proved to be much more than a world class super middleweight, who is probably the best in the world at the moment, but not really all that likely to finish his career as an ATG or anything. He is not particularly powerful, or fast or even have picturesque technique. He is just a very good solid fighter who is in shape and currently one of if not the best super middleweights in the world. He has just beat an aging Bernard Hopkins, who in reality was a very similar fighter to a prime middleweight version of James Toney. ie a defensvie specialist, who was very hard to hit. If making a prediction for Hopkins Toney (prime), i think it is fair to say that the forum would be split with who would win and most would think it would be a close decision.

So if these two were to fight in the next few months, who would win the fight. Would an inshape supermiddleweight Calzaghe beat Toney or would the overweight version of Toney be too strong for Calzaghe.

Personally, i cant see how Toney could beat Calzaghe, given his condition and age (surely Hopkins is in better shape and was a better chance of beating him than Toney currently is).

Incidentally, and as a side issue, if Calzaghe were to beat Toney, how would that suggest a Calzaghe vs Rahman fight would go down, given that the two fought a draw not so long ago. Interestingly, if Calzaghe could be competive against these guys, then why not guys like Kessler and others would go against some of the fighters just outside the top 10 heavy rankings. In the old days, the little guys like Langford, Burns, Fitzsimmons, Choynski and many others would often beat the bigger heavyweights, although often the big guys would beat the better little guys too, Like archie moore losing to Marciano, Conn to Louis etc. I have no doubt that one of the modern superheavys is currently the best fighter in the world and no little guy would dominate the heavys, but based on history and just considering Toneys current performance, i think it would be equally clear that if that super heavy (for arguments sake use Klitchsko) defended his title every month against the best light heavy and super middleweight, for say 3 years, he would eventually lose a fight or two.

Anyway i am starting to rabble on back to the original question, who would win a fight between Calzaghe and Toney if it took place in the next few months.
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:11 PM   #2
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

A boxer with a high volume of punches and a lot of handspeed is always going to give defensive masters with lesser workrates like Toney a ton of trouble.

I'd go with Calzaghe. He didn't look stellar in his last fight, but Bernard "10 punches, 17 clinches and 5 headbutts a round" Hopkins makes everyone look bad. He still won the fight by 3 rounds at least.

By contrast, Toney could hardly get by Batchelder, though his struggles with steroid tests are even worse these days.



By the way, what Calzaghe fights have you seen? His handspeed is amazing, i don't see how you can call him "not particularly fast".
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

A prime Toney vs a peak Calzaghe anywhere between 160-168 Lbs would have been a competitive fight. Probably not a crowd pleaser though. I could see a lot of soft punches being thrown by Joe, and Toney countering while trying to use his defensive statategy to wear down Calzaghe.

Toney did well against most boxers. He wore down and Ko'd Michael Nunn during a time when some felt Nunn was unbeatable. He fought well against a very seasoned Mike McCallum, though I think Mike may have deserved one of those decisions.

I see a very close decision on the scorecards in this match, and I'm not exactly sure who takes. As I said before though, I doubt the fans would be cheering much. These two had bad chemstry in terms of making an exciting match.
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Old 06-10-2008, 12:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

I see Calzage outboxing and outspeeding Toney for a clearcut UD12
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Toney by clear decision.
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Prime for Prime Toney wide decision or late stoppage, Toney is a far too superior a boxer, and would shoot straight timed shots beating Joes wide shots all night.

Toney would also make Calazage miss all night with his shoulder roll. Conversely Joes lack of head movement will see him eat right hand after right hand

If it happened now, it depends how much Toney has left. Toney would still land flush rights on Calazage all night, make him miss and bash him up on the inside BUT Calazage may outwork him because Toney is a shot fighter now, Joe is not
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Joe has quicker reflexes, and when he's on, he is VERY on. Those seemingly weak punches do add up and take guys out or can deliver a comprehensive, career-ending beating, a la Lacy. Consistency, as with Toney, is his problem.

Toney, wildly inconsistent, at times is content with rolling, posing and not throwing. Contrary to what someone said above, he was summarily beaten by Nunn until Nunn- a very tall MW- left his chin high in the air unprotected, late in the fight. At his best, Toney would slow Joe down with body punishment and powerful counters after Joe flurries.

This is an extremely difficult fight to call given the inconsistent performances of both fighters. Backed to a wall, I would pick Calzaghe and then whiteknuckle it through the whole fight.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Calzaghe would beat him by virtue of punch volume. He would win in a way similar to the Dave Tiberi fight, which Tiberi SHOULD have won.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
A boxer with a high volume of punches and a lot of handspeed is always going to give defensive masters with lesser workrates like Toney a ton of trouble.

I'd go with Calzaghe. He didn't look stellar in his last fight, but Bernard "10 punches, 17 clinches and 5 headbutts a round" Hopkins makes everyone look bad. He still won the fight by 3 rounds at least.

By contrast, Toney could hardly get by Batchelder, though his struggles with steroid tests are even worse these days.



By the way, what Calzaghe fights have you seen? His handspeed is amazing, i don't see how you can call him "not particularly fast".
I havent seen that much of Calzaghe. By saying he wasnt that fast, i was really rating him on an alltime sense, probably unfairly comparing his speed to a Roy Johes Jr, or some of the other speedsters.

Incidentally, as most are comparing prime Toney, which version would those people be putting in the ring to give him his best shot. The lighter smaller version, or the older, heavyweight version, or perhaps the inbetween version that fought Holyfield and Jirov.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Calzaghe would open up as he starts slapping, Toney would block his slaps and counter with beautiful uppercuts.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

This would be a nightmare to score, IMO.

It'd be either Calzaghe via workrate or Toney via crisp, hard counters and a high connect rate.

I'd be inclined to lean with Toney, assuming this is prime-for-prime and both are "on" at 168.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker
I know that these are two current boxers, but there would be great interest from a historical perspective in the outcome of this match. Toney is campaining solidly in the heavy division and he has a heavyweight chin and is competive with the heavys. When in shape, he is a very good light heavyweight or super middleweight. Toney is about to rematch a former lineal heavyweight champion who he drew with once before. If we assume that they fight a close fight again, and the overweight Toney has not lost too much more due to age and poor condition, how would he go against Calzaghe.

Calzaghe is a good supermiddleweight, but being honest, he really isnt proved to be much more than a world class super middleweight, who is probably the best in the world at the moment, but not really all that likely to finish his career as an ATG or anything. He is not particularly powerful, or fast or even have picturesque technique. He is just a very good solid fighter who is in shape and currently one of if not the best super middleweights in the world. He has just beat an aging Bernard Hopkins, who in reality was a very similar fighter to a prime middleweight version of James Toney. ie a defensvie specialist, who was very hard to hit. If making a prediction for Hopkins Toney (prime), i think it is fair to say that the forum would be split with who would win and most would think it would be a close decision.

So if these two were to fight in the next few months, who would win the fight. Would an inshape supermiddleweight Calzaghe beat Toney or would the overweight version of Toney be too strong for Calzaghe.

Personally, i cant see how Toney could beat Calzaghe, given his condition and age (surely Hopkins is in better shape and was a better chance of beating him than Toney currently is).

Incidentally, and as a side issue, if Calzaghe were to beat Toney, how would that suggest a Calzaghe vs Rahman fight would go down, given that the two fought a draw not so long ago. Interestingly, if Calzaghe could be competive against these guys, then why not guys like Kessler and others would go against some of the fighters just outside the top 10 heavy rankings. In the old days, the little guys like Langford, Burns, Fitzsimmons, Choynski and many others would often beat the bigger heavyweights, although often the big guys would beat the better little guys too, Like archie moore losing to Marciano, Conn to Louis etc. I have no doubt that one of the modern superheavys is currently the best fighter in the world and no little guy would dominate the heavys, but based on history and just considering Toneys current performance, i think it would be equally clear that if that super heavy (for arguments sake use Klitchsko) defended his title every month against the best light heavy and super middleweight, for say 3 years, he would eventually lose a fight or two.

Anyway i am starting to rabble on back to the original question, who would win a fight between Calzaghe and Toney if it took place in the next few months.
absolutly lenghty piece of drival, to suggest that calzaghe has no hand speed is a joke, and quite clearly shows you hav not wotnessed much of the man career . in ten years as a champions no one has been able to beat him and add to that a whole host of name who avoided him like the pague.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Toney would win a unanimous decision. Hopkins was able to catch Calzaghe with multiple right hand leads and expose Calzaghe for not fighting any of the elite counter punchers becuase he is squared up and doesn't have enough pop to get anyone's respect when he flurry's in pitter pats/slaps on the ropes. Funny becuase the rops is where Toney was about to set up a knockout against Jirov becuase like Calzaghe, Jirov is a volume puncher, fast hands, is squared up when he throws and is open to counters, pacifically the right hand. Calzaghe throws wide looping shots and straight accurate punches are the key to victory. Calzaghe woud be countered by Toney as well, but with harder and more damaging right hands that would have more effect and make Calzaghe think more about coming in wide open. The only difference would be that Toney would beat Calzaghe more convincingly than he did Jirov( even though he was on his way to stopping him) becuase an in shape Toney at super middleweight had exccellent stamina(See Toney vs Barkely) and would be busier than the cruiserweight Toney that only fought in spurts. Toney's handspeed, inside game, defense and offensive asrenal would be too much for Calzaghe to handle at any point.


Calzaghe's people would need to think twice about putting him in with a good counter puncher, thats why i would easily favor Chad Dawson over him.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealthy Elite
toney easy knockout within six.

i should visit your world someday but it sounds like a ticket would cost way too much.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Calzaghe v Toney

Calzaghe would win a UD, HIS speed and awkwardness, punch volume, and determination would be hell for Toney, Calzaghe is more consistent also, never would have lost to B fighters like Griffin 2x, Thadizi, and Toney was lucky to get the nod against Tiberi... a fight he clearly lost
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