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Old 06-10-2008, 04:46 PM   #1
ChrisPontius
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Default Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

For instance, what if Max Baer would not have defended his crown against Braddock, but instead against Al Ettore or Ray Impeltierre (both were ranked), scoring a spectacular knockout, only to fight Joe Louis after that.

It would improve Louis' legacy as Baer would come into the fight with a reputation similar to Foreman when he faced Ali, yet Louis destroyed him in one of his finest displays of punching ability. Baer's standing would improve also without that ugly loss to Braddock.


Another example, Pinklon Thomas is known mostly for his brutal losses to Tyson and Holyfield, with some people remembering his great one-punch KO over Weaver. If he had gotten a title shot against Holmes between 83 and 85, things would've been a lot different. I'd favor him against that fading version of Holmes because of his great jab and strong right hand. Unfortunately, his drug habits would probably make him lose the championship quickly, perhaps even to Holmes in a rematch.




If Lennox Lewis had faced the #1 contender Wladimir Klitschko in 2001, it would've probably improved both men's legacies as well. The likely outcome, a knockout loss for Klitschko would look better than being executed by Sanders a few years later, and in case Lewis makes the same mistake as he did against Rahman in the first fight, he would lose to a better fighter and needless to say, Klitschko would gain a big win.
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
For instance, what if Max Baer would not have defended his crown against Braddock, but instead against Al Ettore or Ray Impeltierre (both were ranked), scoring a spectacular knockout, only to fight Joe Louis after that.

It would improve Louis' legacy as Baer would come into the fight with a reputation similar to Foreman when he faced Ali, yet Louis destroyed him in one of his finest displays of punching ability. Baer's standing would improve also without that ugly loss to Braddock.
An interesting what if.

In this scenario people would asume that Baer would have been champion for a long time without Louis on the scene. Any subsequent loses would be written off as him never recovering from the Louis loss. Louis would also gain a huge win.

However...................

This also means that Louis wins the title a year earlier without fighting Schmeling as he would have met Baer for the title instead of fighting an eliminator against Baer, perhaps on the same date.

Schmeling would almost certainly have been instaled as a mandatory early in Louis's title reign, again around the time that the actual fight took place. This means that Louis probably looses the title to Schmeling.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

Interesting to ponder, but a lot is balanced out when reputations are concerned.

Concerning Lewis, after he became the first to wax, the yet-to-be-exposed, Michael Grant, the next issue of the Ring was pointing towards him being one of the greatest ever Heavyweight champions.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:21 PM   #4
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

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Originally Posted by janitor

Schmeling would almost certainly have been instaled as a mandatory early in Louis's title reign, again around the time that the actual fight took place. This means that Louis probably looses the title to Schmeling.
It would make Schmeling the first (heavyweight?) champion to recapture the title.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
It would make Schmeling the first (heavyweight?) champion to recapture the title.
And a bit of a Tyson Douglas style fall for Louis.

Schmeling would have got the chance to defended the title at least three times before the war put a stop to it.

One of those defences would probably be against Tommy Farr, a fight which could have been as politicised as Louis Schmeling II.

We could go on like this all day.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

What if Tyson had gotten an immediate rematch with Douglas?

Say they fight in the fall of 1990 and Douglas finds a nice spot to lay his undertrained body down on and collect his millions.

Tyson fights Holyfield, his mandatory, rather than Ruddock, in the spring of 1991.

Does Tyson happen to be another place where he commits a sick act and goes to prison? Was he really guilty? Does he ever go to Indiana in July 1991?

Who wins?
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:54 PM   #7
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
An interesting what if.

In this scenario people would asume that Baer would have been champion for a long time without Louis on the scene. Any subsequent loses would be written off as him never recovering from the Louis loss. Louis would also gain a huge win.

However...................

This also means that Louis wins the title a year earlier without fighting Schmeling as he would have met Baer for the title instead of fighting an eliminator against Baer, perhaps on the same date.

Schmeling would almost certainly have been instaled as a mandatory early in Louis's title reign, again around the time that the actual fight took place. This means that Louis probably looses the title to Schmeling.
This would have huge consequences not only would Schmeling become the first two time heavy weight champion but enless he were to give Louis a rematch right away it is likely that he could have been the champion when Germany invaded Poland. I think Louis would have won a rematch a r match with Max Baer would also be unlikely. Jack Sharkey had not fought for about 2 years. James Braddock would have most likly been his first defense if he stayed in the States most likely the German goverment would have made him come back to Germany and defend against Adolf Heuser who he beat in his next fight after Louis by first round ko. It is very unlikely that Louis a Black Man or Bear a Jew? would get shots at a champion Schmeling.
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

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Originally Posted by ripcity
This would have huge consequences not only would Schmeling become the first two time heavy weight champion but enless he were to give Louis a rematch right away it is likely that he could have been the champion when Germany invaded Poland. I think Louis would have won a rematch a r match with Max Baer would also be unlikely. Jack Sharkey had not fought for about 2 years. James Braddock would have most likly been his first defense if he stayed in the States most likely the German goverment would have made him come back to Germany and defend against Adolf Heuser who he beat in his next fight after Louis by first round ko. It is very unlikely that Louis a Black Man or Bear a Jew? would get shots at a champion Schmeling.
Part of me thinks that this scenario would not be as balck as most people think.

Schmeling esentialy operated as an American fighter and even as champion held most of his fights in the states where the money was. He continued to fight in the states for two years after the first Louis fight and even if he fled to Germany the American controled athletic comisions could impose mandatories on him or even strip him.

Could certainly have got interesting though.
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Old 06-11-2008, 06:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

Losing to better fighters always helps. Baer losing to Braddock takes away from Baer's rep.

Wlad losing to Sanders takes away from Wlad's rep, but at least Sanders was an upset minded puncher with fast hands and a different style. I tend to beleive if Wlad had Steward with him he 1 ) Doesn't take this fight and picks someone else, or 2 ) comes in better prepared with clinching skills if needed.

In both cases, I think the favorites underestimated their opponents, especially Wlad. Baer does not seem to try hard enough to win. Sometimes I think Baer vs Braddock was a fixed fight.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

Desiree Washington not in this earth.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

How about if Greb and Dempsey don't spar?

1 - Greb appears on film fighting and beating Dempsey.

2 - Greb is #1 fighter of all time on EVERYONE'S list.

3 - Greb fights black HW's in non title bouts and the colour line is diminished.

4 - Dempsey appears on exactly 0 all time HW lists, and is something of a forgotten champ.

5 - Tunney and Greb fight the most celebrated trilogy in the history of filmed boxing.

6 - Janitor gets into ice-skating instead of boxing.


Hard to think of a small thing with bigger consequences than this...not a lock of course.

Last edited by McGrain; 06-11-2008 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

What if Hagler had got an eye injury in 1979? Any chances of him having much of a historical standing would be gone. The middleweight division would have been fragmented in a similar manner to the heavyweight division in the 1980s, for perhaps over a decadee, snce there was no potentially dominant middleweight to take Hagler's place.

Could Hearns have reigned at middleweight if he hadn't had to deal with Hagler?

What would Sugar Ray Leonard's record look like sans Hagler, especially if he'd not come out of retirement?

Would Monzon finally get his recognition or would people talk about how Hearns would have beat Monzon?
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

What if Frazier had not of caught Ali with that Big left hook in the 11th of "The Fight" Ali was having a revival with a big 9th round andJ oe was Lumping up, That Punch, and Frazier's Subsequent Follow-up took a lot out of Ali, if the Punch had Missed or been Blocked, could Ali have Mounted a late a Revival as he often did ?

Going Back to 64 God Forbid if Angelo Dundee had of Cut Clay's gloves off, as Clay was asking him to.

What if Mathis had not Broken his Thumb a and Took the olympic Heavy Berth in Tokyo 64, No Gold Medel for Frazier, No Cloverley Signing ?
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:32 AM   #14
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
How about if Greb and Dempsey don't spar?

1 - Greb appears on film fighting and beating Dempsey.

2 - Greb is #1 fighter of all time on EVERYONE'S list.

3 - Greb fights black HW's in non title bouts and the colour line is diminished.

4 - Dempsey appears on exactly 0 all time HW lists, and is something of a forgotten champ.

5 - Tunney and Greb fight the most celebrated trilogy in the history of filmed boxing.

6 - Janitor gets into ice-skating instead of boxing.


Hard to think of a small thing with bigger consequences than this...not a lock of course.
Class post!
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:28 AM   #15
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Small, realistic, changes in history with big consequences

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Originally Posted by Punchinator
What if Ali makes one critical mistake somewhere along the line in Zaire and Foreman takes him out?
Highly unlikely. Foreman caught Ali with plenty of punches that landed well and nothing happened. He might knock Ali down, but Ali gets up, covers up, with the fight being even more dramatic after Foreman punches himself out faster than the 8th.
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