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Old 06-11-2008, 10:20 AM   #1
OLD FOGEY
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Default Where would Schmeling rate?

Max Schmeling wrote in his autobiography that if he had gotten the shot at Braddock after his ko of Louis in 1936 and had won the championship, he was planning to retire.

My question--where would Schmeling rate on the all-time list if this very plausible scenario played out? Schmeling ko's Louis in 1936, regains title from Braddock, and then retires, never fighting Louis a second time?

And where would Louis rate?
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Interesting. Let me first say that I don't see the Braddock that beat Bear and lost to Louis as anything but 50.50 against the slightly past peak Schmeling. But assuming he won I think that -

Schmeling would be my #10, Louis would be unchanged at #2, BUT, I we wouldn't see half the wailing and nashing of teeth about who should be #1 and who would be number #2 - Ali would be the close to universal choice, Louis at #1 would be seen as contriversial.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Schmelling would simply have to be rated above Louis. Louis would drop out of the top5 and maybe out of the top10. He would be remembered for being completely destroyed by the 2 best fighters he faced in Schmelling and Marciano. Too many question marks would remain and his competition. The Baer win would be something of a salvage to LOuis because Baer beat Schmelling bumping him close to Schmelling but at least 1 place below.

This is a similar scenario to Sanchez-Nelson, it didnt matter what Nelson went on to do, Sanchez would always possess the win over him.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

I honestly couldn't provide an actual number in terms of rating, but I'd say that such a scenario would certainly boost Schmeling's legacy to excellent proportions.

By beating James Braddock, Schmeling would have become the first two time heavyweight champion the world had ever seen. Such a feat would not be duplicated for at least another 20+ years or so, when Patterson would regain the belt from Johanson. In addition, by retiring after such a match, he not only would have eliminated the loss to Louis, but a couple others that came late in his career as well.

I suppose a big part of Schmeling's success and all time standing would also have to do with how Louis's future as champion had turned out. Had Joe proceded to have the astounding career that we are all well familiar with, then it certainly would have helped Max's legacy.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Perhaps this is a topic for a different thread, but incidentally, how do some here feel that a Schmeling Braddock fight would have turned out? Would Braddock's heart and constant pressure have troubled Schmeling, or would Max's skill and incredible resourcefullness have left Braddock without a title?

My answer: Schmeling seemed to have had the most trouble with big punchers as seen against Max Baer and Joe Louis in the rematch. This would not be much of an issue, given that Braddock was not a particularly devastating hitter. In addition, I feel that Schmeling was generally a fundamentally better and more polished fighter than Braddock was in most aspects of the game. I'm guessing that Schmeling takes a hard fought decision or perhaps even a stoppage.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

People Give Braddock Unfair treatment. If you watch film of him in his prime, he threw one of the better textbook straight right hands I have seen. He had size 6'3 200lb, amazing Durability, he kept his gloves high chin down, solid fundamentals.....he was a good boxer.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
People Give Braddock Unfair treatment. If you watch film of him in his prime, he threw one of the better textbook straight right hands I have seen. He had size 6'3 200lb, amazing Durability, he kept his gloves high chin down, solid fundamentals.....he was a good boxer.
He was a very good fighter, but I would be inclined to making Schmeling the favorite.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
He was a very good fighter, but I would be inclined to making Schmeling the favorite.
Inclined? Schmellings is a complete different skill class and would pick him apart. Braddocks pressure may give the him the rounds that Schmelling takes off. But Schmellings skill, speed, timing and power would win either a wide wide UD or a late KO
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

I'd have him in the top 10, probably. His record would stand as something like 49-7, he would have avoided the destruction that occurred in the Louis rematch, he'd have Braddock's name on his resume, he'd be the first two time heavyweight champion. I doubt I'd place him above Louis, after all, he'd still have those early losses, plus his 1 round KO to Gypsy Danial's and his losses to Hamas and Baer. I also think that Schmeling should have got the nod in his rematch with Sharkey.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

people always make braddock out to be some crude rocky balboa head forward rush in brawler. couldnt be further from the truth. He was a standup chin down high guarded finese boxer who worked behind an elegent left jab to unleash his menacing straight right hand.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
people always make braddock out to be some crude rocky balboa head forward rush in brawler. couldnt be further from the truth. He was a standup chin down high guarded finese boxer who worked behind an elegent left jab to unleash his menacing straight right hand.
I think Braddock on the very best night of his career could have given Max Schmeling a worthy challenge, perhaps even upset him. For the most part however, Max was in a higher league and possesed better talent from just about every stand point. Braddock has my respect as a very tough fighter, with an undying work ethic and underrated skill, but at the end of the day, most people would make him the underdog and for good reason.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

I agree Magoo, I pick Schmeling by Unanimous decision.


Quote:
Schmeling seemed to have had the most trouble with big punchers

I dont know. I had the Baer-Schmeling fight scored even going into the 10th and final round. Did Baer dominate him that much? schmeling also beat up joe louis badly in the first fight. Louis would have done the same to virtually any fighter in history on that 2nd nite, he was a machine that night fighting for america. Schmeling didnt seem to have too much trouble dealing with punchers like Walter Neusal, Steve Hamas Rematch, or Young Stribling
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I agree Magoo, I pick Schmeling by Unanimous decision.





I dont know. I had the Baer-Schmeling fight scored even going into the 10th and final round. Did Baer dominate him that much? schmeling also beat up joe louis badly in the first fight. Louis would have done the same to virtually any fighter in history on that 2nd nite, he was a machine that night fighting for america. Schmeling didnt seem to have too much trouble dealing with punchers like Walter Neusal, Steve Hamas Rematch, or Young Stribling
Very true. He definately showed that he could hold his own against some respectable hitters. I guess the reason I made the statement, is because the best two fighters he ever faced were probably Louis and Baer. In a combined 3 meetings with those men, he was knocked out 2 times out of 3. No big deal though. The first Louis meeting was very impressive, but we also have to consider that Joe had fought 27 times in 23 months, and was not even two full years into his career, so I think he was still a work in progress. Something tells me that Schmeling would always have some difficulty with big punchers, especially the more technically sound ones. I could see someone like Joe Frazier really putting the hurt on Schmeling.

Last edited by mr. magoo; 06-11-2008 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I agree Magoo, I pick Schmeling by Unanimous decision.





I dont know. I had the Baer-Schmeling fight scored even going into the 10th and final round. Did Baer dominate him that much? schmeling also beat up joe louis badly in the first fight. Louis would have done the same to virtually any fighter in history on that 2nd nite, he was a machine that night fighting for america. Schmeling didnt seem to have too much trouble dealing with punchers like Walter Neusal, Steve Hamas Rematch, or Young Stribling
On the cards Baer-Schmeling was pretty much even, but I felt like Baer was pretty much controlling the fight, and when he really opened up, Shchmeling didn't have anything to answer back with. Still, he did survive 10 rounds against a prime and motivated Max Baer, and shook off some pretty decent shots in the process. The right hand that put him down in the 10th was one of the hardest I've ever seen, and he still got up.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Where would Schmeling rate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
People Give Braddock Unfair treatment. If you watch film of him in his prime, he threw one of the better textbook straight right hands I have seen. He had size 6'3 200lb, amazing Durability, he kept his gloves high chin down, solid fundamentals.....he was a good boxer.
SuzieQ, this is a good post.

Did you know that Braddock was only measured as six three as he approached the HW title? - he put on a weird burst of growth. By the time he took on Corn Griffin he was a rested fighter, fighting with an unbroken hand for the first time in years, bigger, stronger....ready, basically.
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