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Old 06-20-2008, 06:29 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default What if Foreman had not retired?

The what if Foreman beat Ali thread gave me an idea. What if Foreman had not retired after his loss to Jimmy Young. I think Foreman was in mental decline at that loss, and would have likely lost a few times more had he decided to continue until 1980.
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Old 06-20-2008, 06:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

If Foreman had never retired after the Young fight, we would not have the Lean Mean Grilling Machine today.
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Old 06-20-2008, 06:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

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Originally Posted by MachineGunMitch
if forman would have beat ALI he would have been champ for years
loosing eventually to an upencomer named Mike Tyson
if forman would have beat ALI he would have been champ for years and eventually defeating an upencomer named Mike Tyson (and then retiring)
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Holmes would have beat Foreman, if a 7year past prime Ali takes him out and Young outboxes him Holmes is stylistically his worst nightmare.

He would have been seen as a bit part limited champion to an extent but probably would have had a belt

Maybe he comes through and stops Holmes though, but Holmes would be jabbing and moving which would rack up the rounds. I think everyone else Foreman steamrolls pretty much. Shavers would be fun but Foreman comes through. Cooney he would blow out in a war.

Why didnt we get this 1 in the 90s?
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Holmes would have beat Foreman, if a 7year past prime Ali takes him out and Young outboxes him Holmes is stylistically his worst nightmare.

He would have been seen as a bit part limited champion to an extent but probably would have had a belt

Maybe he comes through and stops Holmes though, but Holmes would be jabbing and moving which would rack up the rounds.

Why didnt we get this 1 in the 90s?
A post-Zaire VICTORIOUS George wouldn't have carried his loss-induced stupidity and mental demons into the Lyle/Young fights tho Holmes may have gotten him by 77/78...
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:45 AM   #6
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

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Originally Posted by jowcol
A post-Zaire VICTORIOUS George wouldn't have carried his loss-induced stupidity and mental demons into the Lyle/Young fights tho Holmes may have gotten him by 77/78...
Were these performances mental or just showing his limitations though? BTW the thread says nothing about Foreman beating Ali, just Foreman not retiring after Young
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

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Originally Posted by El Matador
if forman would have beat ALI he would have been champ for years and eventually defeating an upencomer named Mike Tyson (and then retiring)
If foreman would've beaten ali, he would've been champ untill he ran into larry holmes, tyson came about to late for foreman, if george had'nt retired. Hunger would defo be gone.Winning the title in 73 tyson fighting for it 86, nah not happening
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The what if Foreman beat Ali thread gave me an idea. What if Foreman had not retired after his loss to Jimmy Young. I think Foreman was in mental decline at that loss, and would have likely lost a few times more had he decided to continue until 1980.
I agree,

Foreman's mind was every place, but on boxing. He said after the Jimmy Young fight, that he felt like he had some sort of near death experience and prayed to God to give him a chance to change his life. Was this a true statment, or just drama? Who knows. But, in either case, I don't think his heart was in boxing anymore. A good boxer like say John Tate may have outpointed him around 1978-79, as possibly would have a few others.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Holmes would have beat Foreman, if a 7year past prime Ali takes him out and Young outboxes him Holmes is stylistically his worst nightmare.

He would have been seen as a bit part limited champion to an extent but probably would have had a belt

Maybe he comes through and stops Holmes though, but Holmes would be jabbing and moving which would rack up the rounds. I think everyone else Foreman steamrolls pretty much. Shavers would be fun but Foreman comes through. Cooney he would blow out in a war.

Why didnt we get this 1 in the 90s?
I have always wished they fought in the 90s. I would have Holmes winning in the late 70s early 80s rather easy. However in the 90s I think George would have taken Holmes. Mainly because George was competing at a higher level and had more left than Holmes of the 90s. Plus his stamina and defense had improved over the younger George
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:33 AM   #10
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I agree,

Foreman's mind was every place, but on boxing. He said after the Jimmy Young fight, that he felt like he had some sort of near death experience and prayed to God to give him a chance to change his life. Was this a true statment, or just drama? Who knows. But, in either case, I don't think his heart was in boxing anymore. A good boxer like say John Tate may have outpointed him around 1978-79, as possibly would have a few others.
Good assessment. I think Foreman was only about 80% of his peak self in 1977. Although he'd moved from being a wild brawler to a more precise and intelligent boxer, he'd also lost a step mentally and didn't have that "never say die" attitude he'd had against Lyle a year earlier.

As for what would happen if Foreman didn't lose to Ali, I don't think he'd have held onto the title for long. He'd have never got a hold of Gil Clancy, so he wouldn't have developed his skills any further. It's worth noting that no boxer with Foreman's first style ever had a long title reign; in fact, boxers who rely purely on their power and strength rarely make it to the top and never have long title reigns.

I think Ron Lyle would have beaten Foreman in 1975, since Foreman wouldn't have the sound corner advice from Clancy nor the desire to prove himself at any cost (even his own life) which he had for a while after the Rumble in the Jungle. If you compare the Foreman of the Rumble- where he more or less quits after the sixth round and then watches the ref count him out in round 8- with the Foreman of the Lyle fight, where he takes a beating from one of the leading punchers of the day and still gets up repeatedly to win when all seemed lost, there's no comparison in mental terms. Lyle would have beaten the 1973-1974 Foreman in impressive fashion and probably then lost to Muhammad Ali, perhaps after/or beating/losing to Joe Frazier.
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Old 06-20-2008, 10:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Good assessment. I think Foreman was only about 80% of his peak self in 1977. Although he'd moved from being a wild brawler to a more precise and intelligent boxer, he'd also lost a step mentally and didn't have that "never say die" attitude he'd had against Lyle a year earlier.

As for what would happen if Foreman didn't lose to Ali, I don't think he'd have held onto the title for long. He'd have never got a hold of Gil Clancy, so he wouldn't have developed his skills any further. It's worth noting that no boxer with Foreman's first style ever had a long title reign; in fact, boxers who rely purely on their power and strength rarely make it to the top and never have long title reigns.

I think Ron Lyle would have beaten Foreman in 1975, since Foreman wouldn't have the sound corner advice from Clancy nor the desire to prove himself at any cost (even his own life) which he had for a while after the Rumble in the Jungle. If you compare the Foreman of the Rumble- where he more or less quits after the sixth round and then watches the ref count him out in round 8- with the Foreman of the Lyle fight, where he takes a beating from one of the leading punchers of the day and still gets up repeatedly to win when all seemed lost, there's no comparison in mental terms. Lyle would have beaten the 1973-1974 Foreman in impressive fashion and probably then lost to Muhammad Ali, perhaps after/or beating/losing to Joe Frazier.
Yeah, who knows what happened to George's mental resolve during the late 70's. Its actually quite mind boggling when we look at the lyle performance along with some respectable wins over fighter like Denis and Ledoux as well. He was also leading against Jimmy Young in the early part of the fight before tiring and losing focus. Frankly, I think its a shame that he couldn't keep it together, because a more motivated and stable Foreman probably could have beaten a lot of the top players between 1978-1982, perhaps even captured an alpha title, and maybe ended up in a super fight with Larry Holmes. Of course, had these things happened, we likely wouldn't have seen him years later, when he acheived the impossible, and arguably did more for his legacy than any career extension in the early 80's could have done for him. Had he continued boxing beyond the Young fight, he might have done reasonably well with the right guidance, but probably would have ended his career permanantely around 1983-84.
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

if foreman had not retired on 1977, he would have retired on 1978 But seriously, he retired because he wanted to be a minister so I guess he already lost his concentration on boxing. If he continued fighting, he would have a lot of losses.
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Were these performances mental or just showing his limitations though? BTW the thread says nothing about Foreman beating Ali, just Foreman not retiring after Young
What up PP?...I mentioned Zaire because you had mentioned the Young fight. I just don't think Foreman's performances against Lyle/Young would have been the same had he come out of the Ali fight a winner...
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

If Foreman didn't retire, I think Lyle vs Foreman II would have happened as well as Foreman vs Shavers. Larry Holmes and Foreman probably would have had one of the best fights of the late 70's if they had fought. Certainly there would have been a rematch with Ali and maybe Bobick or Spinks gets into the ring with Foreman as well.
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Old 06-20-2008, 01:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: What if Foreman had not retired?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I agree,

Foreman's mind was every place, but on boxing. He said after the Jimmy Young fight, that he felt like he had some sort of near death experience and prayed to God to give him a chance to change his life. Was this a true statment, or just drama? Who knows.
In addition to the dehydration Foreman was said to have been suffering from, during his stay in the hospital following the Young matchup the doctors also diagnosed him with having suffered a concussion during the fight, which, as anyone who has had a concussion knows (couple that with the dehydration), can play some real wild things on one's thought process, as well as one's own sense of reality.
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