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Old 06-25-2008, 09:41 AM   #1
DINAMITA
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Default Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

I'm not a boxing expert, but it seems to me that Leonard's major wins (Benitez, Duran II, Hearns I, Hagler) and his incredible achievement in winning world titles at welterweight all the way up to light-heavyweight (has this ever been done by anyone else?), mean that he really should be what I suggested in the title of this thread. But I always notice that when his name comes up on this forum, many people who appear to know a helluva lot about boxing, are often quite negative about him. Or even if they are not exactly negative, they don't seem to give him the status that I think he deserves. Do you guys agree with me, or are there good reasons why Leonard is not what I think he is??
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Old 06-25-2008, 09:55 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

I know you might think im biased, look who's in my avatar! But i'll do my best here-

Leonard imo, is most definitely the greatest welter since Robinson, in his prime Leonard brilliant, his single left hooks were so fast, and the clubbing-type right hand aswell, such smoothe footwork he had also, and was durable. Legacy-wise, the big criticism is that he picked fights when they suited him, he could do this because of his financial power. What wins Duran and Hagler were, but people will give the opinion that he fought them both when it suited him, we all know the specifics of the two cases i mentioned. I personally scord the Hagler one a draw, but i could possibly see it for Leonard. And winning the 168 and 175 titles in the same fight? Come on!

He was brilliant though, like i say, in his prime, it took an absolutely determined and hellbent Duran to beat him (Duran has a chance with any welter bar SRR on that night imo, and he would make a helluva fight in that 1), and he avenged that in style. The Hearns win is a defining moment legacy-wise, that's top tier legacy-making stuff right there.

Sorry, but Hagler did look slightly past his best to me in their bout, slower most definitely, everytime he went southpaw he was in control, what was he thinking? But no excuses, you can view this as a great Leonard win also.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

I have Duran and Ali above him pound for pound.

Leanoard is top 15 all time and certainly has a case for being above Ali, but I don't think he should be ranked in front of Duran, personally.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Leonard was amazing but teeto does a good job of outlining some criticisms. I read once that whilst Ray had the wins over Tommy, Benitez and the rematch with Duran, that he didn't have exclusive bragging rights that came with it.

Recently on UK TV. Barry McGuigan and Duke McKenzie both had him as the greatest all round fighter 9and that included Robinson) But both also think he lost to Hagler.

IMO he has a shout at the #2 spot at 147 along with Griffith, Napoles and maybe Walker. Duran on his day would be up there but I can't just forget his failings at the weight.

p4p I rate him top 20 (I don't include HWs).
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:17 AM   #5
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzard
Leonard was amazing but teeto does a good job of outlining some criticisms. I read once that whilst Ray had the wins over Tommy, Benitez and the rematch with Duran, that he didn't have exclusive bragging rights that came with it.

Recently on UK TV. Barry McGuigan and Duke McKenzie both had him as the greatest all round fighter 9and that included Robinson) But both also think he lost to Hagler.

IMO he has a shout at the #2 spot at 147 along with Griffith, Napoles and maybe Walker. Duran on his day would be up there but I can't just forget his failings at the weight.

p4p I rate him top 20 (I don't include HWs).
Thanks for acknowledging my poiints Ezzard, good one how how you said though he has the wins over them elites, it could be said not the complete bragging rights that look on paper to accompany them.

Its all subjective and i think we're bound to get some posters with positives for Leonard on here shortly, maye justifiably aswell.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto
Thanks for acknowledging my poiints Ezzard, good one how how you said though he has the wins over them elites, it could be said not the complete bragging rights that look on paper to accompany them.

Its all subjective and i think we're bound to get some posters with positives for Leonard on here shortly, maye justifiably aswell.
Agreed... He was a special fighter.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

I would say that a case can be made for having him as the best p4p since Robinson. His foremost rivals for this honour would be Ali, Duran and possibly RJJ.

I would say Leonard's win over Hagler more or less rates with Duran's win over Leonard. Hagler was probably slightly past his prime, but Leonard was further past his and fighting above his natural weight. Giving one of the greatest middleweight ever such a fight under those conditions... Extraordinary.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:59 AM   #8
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Thanks very much for all of your responses guys. I think Leonard was the greatest welterweight of all-time (if you count SRR as a middleweight) and he should be in or around top 5 all-time P4P alongside Duran. Cheers.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACFAN84
Thanks very much for all of your responses guys. I think Leonard was the greatest welterweight of all-time (if you count SRR as a middleweight) and he should be in or around top 5 all-time P4P alongside Duran. Cheers.
Leonard is definitely one of the finest welters ever, but Robinson's prime years were at 147 also, seen as though there was no 154 then, Robinson imo, is undoubtedly the greatest welter, you really look into what he did there and there's no other man for the spot by my reckoning.

A lot of people say that Leonard may be the best ever welter H2H, this i must may say, may be true, but ive always argued the poiint for Robinson there also. Robinson was immense in every way!!
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

P4P, he cannot be ranked ahead of older, smaller, shorter lightweight Duran who decisioned him handily the first time they met head to head. Duran was also more impressive over the first 12 rounds against a superior version of Hagler, even though eight ounce gloves were worn in Hagler/Duran, rather than the ten ounce gloves worn in SRL/Hagler.

But Ray produced a shocking performance against an undisputed middleweight champion who was considered the P4P best in the world at the time, and he did it off what was essentially a five year hiatus. That achievement stands alone historically.

I consider the Duran of DeJesus III and Montreal to be the P4P best since Robinson.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
I consider the Duran of DeJesus III and Montreal to be the P4P best since Robinson.
Duran showed his full arsenal against De Jesus in their 3rd meeting. That was Duran at the absolute peak of his powers as a lightweight. His attacks were more measured and precise compared to when he just became champion. His superb ability to slip and slide under punches was never more evident than in this encounter. He was very quick to switch around with his feet and vary the angles to produce punching opportunities.


Thoughtful, economical, precise, quick, variation, powerful, awareness. Just a few of the words to describe Duran's victory that night.
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Old 06-26-2008, 04:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
Duran was also more impressive over the first 12 rounds against a superior version of Hagler, even though eight ounce gloves were worn in Hagler/Duran, rather than the ten ounce gloves worn in SRL/Hagler.
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Old 06-26-2008, 04:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

He might be the best welterweight since Robinson, but we must not forget Tommy Hearns either, who also captured a title in every weight from welter to lightheavy.
Leonard also captured two titles - the spr middle and lightheavy - in one night against Lalonde, whereas Hearns had to do it against different fighters on different nights.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

He's definitely the best Welter since Robbo. I have him #9 P4P.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:34 AM   #15
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

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Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
He's definitely the best Welter since Robbo. I have him #9 P4P.
Do you have him ahead of Ali and Duran?
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