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Old 06-27-2008, 02:45 PM   #31
BritInvasion
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Ali possible and Duran 10000% certainly for me.

Anyone rate Roy Jones above Leonard? Roy's resume don't match the saccharine one, not that Hop and Toney should be sniffed at with the Ruiz win underappreciated if not quite 'underrated'; but I think a good case be made that Roy is 'better'. Is his H2H ranking enough to give him the nod ahead of Ray? I think Roy is underrated on all time lists and Ray the complete opposite, I mean for Roy it was so easy. So. Easy. He would not have lost to a guy a division south of him in his prime. No way. Thoughts?
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Two things stand out in my mind that will forever mar Leonard's rank as a fighter.

One is that he never fought the best of Marvin Hagler (by choice) and two, he was brutally outclassed by Norris.

It's simple, Norris should not have beaten Leonard who, was a five time champion and arguably the greatest welterweight of his time. Remember, Norris was at a severe disadvantage in terms of overall experience and was faced with a living legend on the heels of a most brutal knockout loss to Julian Jackson.

Inactivity was not a factor here since Sugar Ray had been relatively busy over the last four years and showed little or no signs of slippage from his earlier years. Leonard also had not recieved a loss in years and was on an astounding 11 year win streak.

Even if it were a split decision in favor of Norris, history and logic tells us Norris shouldn't have won the fight, let alone turn it into a one sided win the way he did. The important thing to remember is not what should have happend in the fight but rather what actually happened in comparison with what was expected to happen that makes this all the more an impressive achievement for Terry.

This was a major accomplishment that went down in the annals of sports history that musn't be ignored. This was every bit as great an accomplishment as was Buster Douglas' miracle win over Tyson and Antuofuermo's miracle draw against Hagler in '79.

Let's please not downplay the significance of this important victory. I can understand all the hate Terry recieves because of it (destroying one of boxing's most beloved idols) but let's be honest and give proper credit to the man who made Ray Leonard bow in acknowledgement of fistic superiority.

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Old 06-27-2008, 04:39 PM   #33
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritInvasion
Ali possible and Duran 10000% certainly for me.

Anyone rate Roy Jones above Leonard? Roy's resume don't match the saccharine one, not that Hop and Toney should be sniffed at with the Ruiz win underappreciated if not quite 'underrated'; but I think a good case be made that Roy is 'better'. Is his H2H ranking enough to give him the nod ahead of Ray? I think Roy is underrated on all time lists and Ray the complete opposite, I mean for Roy it was so easy. So. Easy. He would not have lost to a guy a division south of him in his prime. No way. Thoughts?
Roy Jones is definitely head and shoulders above the likes of Leonard or Benitez. The thought of ducking another fighter would never occur to him, so great were his talents. He was supremely confident before his fights unlike Leonard who needed assurance from Randy Gordon that he wasn't going to be in over his head facing Roberto Duran (a lightweight)

But back to Roy Jones. In my mind, Roy Jones is vastly underrated because many fans from before the Roy Jones era resent his enormous talents. Deep down they all know how good he was but they don't like to admit it, preferring to cite his lack of competition. Critics who did not like Hagler also resorted to this for many years blaming him for not fighting leonard. Yet I did not hear these same people calling for leonard to summon the courage to challenge him.
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:33 PM   #34
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Based on talent & great fighters that Leonard beat, Id rank him top 5 p4p & 2nd best welter-wt after SRR.

I fully understand if some dont rate him top 5 but you must rate him top 10 which means he was 1 helluva fighter & he was.

Master boxer, could brawl too, great stamina, solid chin, fast, versatile & really knew how to finish a guy.

Got the better of Duran thru 3 fights, got the better of Hearns thru 2 fights (even if you give Tommy the 2nd fight, it was only a pts loss where as SRL TKOd Hearns in the prime fight) & outboxed & out-thought Hagler in their 1 fight. Lets not forget outboxing defensive genius Benitez then stopping him in rd 15.

Great fighter, underrated on this forum generally.
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Leonard deserves to be 2nd all-time at welterweight. He's certainly Top 15 all-time p4p and probably Top 10 IMO.

His skillset is incredible as he got great great speed of hand and foot, power, toughness, endurance, killer instinct and all the intangibles to get the upper hand when needed. His speed, flashiness, movement and his left hook were his bread and butter.

The names on his record are truly impressive (Duran, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez) but the number of fights on it can't give him the edge over 100+ fights ATG's. Their skills must've been sharper because they fought more often. And Leonard's inactivity doesn't play in his favor.

Leonard chose his fights with care (his eye injury may be for something though), as he wanted to fight on his own terms, when the money was there, when he was ready and when he thought that the guy at the other end was ready to be beat. That's why we never had the chance to see Leonard against Aaron Pryor, Mike McCallum, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry or Hagler in a rematch.

I can't rank Leonard above the likes of Willie Pep, Sugar Ray Robinson or Benny Leonard who dominate the game for a longer and more active period of time.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:26 PM   #36
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Leonard was great but I rate Duran and ali above him. I rate Leonard even with Heans, even though Hearns had a suspect chin.

In fight one with Hearns, the ref stopped the bout with Hearns well ahead and not that hurt. The announcer said, "Oh, I don't believe this! He's stopping the fight. Hearns was way ahead!"

In their second fight, Leonard got a gift in the draw. Hearns had him down twice, and hurt in several rounds. Almost everybody thought Hearns got robbed.

Also, Hearns beat a tougher set of fighters in winning his various titles. Virgil Hill, for example, is on many lists of ATG light heavies.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:22 AM   #37
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Roy Jones is definitely head and shoulders above the likes of Leonard or Benitez. The thought of ducking another fighter would never occur to him, so great were his talents. He was supremely confident before his fights unlike Leonard who needed assurance from Randy Gordon that he wasn't going to be in over his head facing Roberto Duran (a lightweight)

But back to Roy Jones. In my mind, Roy Jones is vastly underrated because many fans from before the Roy Jones era resent his enormous talents. Deep down they all know how good he was but they don't like to admit it, preferring to cite his lack of competition. Critics who did not like Hagler also resorted to this for many years blaming him for not fighting leonard. Yet I did not hear these same people calling for leonard to summon the courage to challenge him.
Roy Jones supremely confident before his fights? What about against Glen Johnson and Tarver the 3rd time round? Didn't look like he had an aura of confidence there.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:03 AM   #38
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_Lowe
Roy Jones supremely confident before his fights? What about against Glen Johnson and Tarver the 3rd time round? Didn't look like he had an aura of confidence there.


Cut out the crap; I got the lowdown on everything right down to the details of the first and second Duran fights. Leonard had no confidence at all and because of it, held up the Hagler fight for years. He was just a relic by that time, not just "a little past it"

Leonard isn't made to fit Jones' shoes just in the courage department alone. Roy Jones ever make Tarver wait ten years for a rematch? That is just ridiculous and even worse the way his fans just turn the other way pretending not to notice.

You saw how fast Norris made him fall apart when Terry wasn't even given a minute chance to win. With Hagler-Leonard you could at least say it was close either way. Can you say that of Terry Norris and Leonard?

We are talking the same odds which had to be overcome and the simple truth is that Norris won decisively whereas Leonard did not; there was controversy involved. In fact, this was the most controversial fight EVER.

Norris-leonard wasn't even a fight because Terry made it that way. Fact is, Terry made Ray Leonard fight his fight and there was nothing he could do about it.

By the third round the fight was already over so I would say there is no way Leonard is an all time great. He's not a top two welter at all. The problem is that no one here knows anything about any other welterweight before 1980 and because of people's ignorance of the division and previous title holders, Leonard's reputation has greatly benefitted because of it.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_Lowe
By every conceivable advantage you mean a smaller ring and a 12 round fight. Wow, the deck was sure stacked against Hagler, who was the naturally bigger fighter, had 2 previous fights that were 12 round affairs, and he was the reigning middleweight champ with 12 title defences.

Its simple, Leonard should not have beaten Hagler, who was the bigger fighter and arguably the greatest middleweight of all time. Hagler may have been past his best but to bring that up allows us to also factor in that Leonard had only 1 fight in 5 years. Even if it was a split decision, history and logic tells us Leonard shouldn't have won that fight, much the same way that Duran shouldn't have beaten Leonard first time around but he did. Please don't go discrediting Leonard's win there and saying Duran's close (but clear) losing effort was a better accomplishment.
I acknowledge that it was the capping triumph of a brilliant, though brief career. That's fair. I also acknowledge that many believe it was a non-win that he sought every advantage in and of the ring -these are facts.

* the rings wasn't a smaller ring. It was a larger ring. Running requires room.
* 12 round fight -not necessary in 1987, but absolutely necessary for Leonard to win. He would not have won over 15 rounds -wouldn't you agree?
* the gloves were larger.
* Dundee's staged hollering throughout the fight, specifically designed to sway the judges.
* Leonard's refusal to meet Hagler earlier.

And there are more...
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Old 07-05-2008, 02:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Well, Im new at this forum and we all have our own favourites in the game but for me Sugar Ray Leonard is the second best boxer all time just after Ali. I have not seen that many fights with Robinson perhaps he was better or as good. Roy Jones is good but feels not as good as Ali and Leonard. This is my opinion and what Leonard did in the Hagler fight was incredible. I can watch that fight over and over again.
Round 9, talk about handspeed.
Just remember that this is my opinion dont want to make enemies here, just friends
The predator
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Old 07-05-2008, 03:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Predator
Well, Im new at this forum and we all have our own favourites in the game but for me Sugar Ray Leonard is the second best boxer all time just after Ali. I have not seen that many fights with Robinson perhaps he was better or as good. Roy Jones is good but feels not as good as Ali and Leonard. This is my opinion and what Leonard did in the Hagler fight was incredible. I can watch that fight over and over again.
Round 9, talk about handspeed.
Just remember that this is my opinion dont want to make enemies here, just friends
The predator
Well, I'm confident that if you stick around the classic section and your mind is open, you'll be changing your top 1 and 2 spots and join (most of) us as we drink from the fountain of wisdom and pugilistic history.

You'll soon find that the top one or two spots can rightly be claimed only by the following:

Robinson
Armstrong
Greb
Pep
Langford

---and very few others. No Heavies and no one with less than 50 fights.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:00 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I acknowledge that it was the capping triumph of a brilliant, though brief career. That's fair. I also acknowledge that many believe it was a non-win that he sought every advantage in and of the ring -these are facts.

* the rings wasn't a smaller ring. It was a larger ring. Running requires room.
* 12 round fight -not necessary in 1987, but absolutely necessary for Leonard to win. He would not have won over 15 rounds -wouldn't you agree?
* the gloves were larger.
* Dundee's staged hollering throughout the fight, specifically designed to sway the judges.
* Leonard's refusal to meet Hagler earlier.

And there are more...
* Marvin Hagler was past his best, but Ray was in even worse shape.
* Everybody thought Hagler would win. Sugar defied the odds.
* Hagler was the much bigger man.
* Hagler was the far more active fighter.

Anybody trying to discredit Sugar Ray's victory over Hagler are one of two things.

* They resent Sugar for beating their favourite fighter.
* Uneducated.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfkill
* Marvin Hagler was past his best, but Ray was in even worse shape.
Wrong. Leonard spent months studying and training for this bout. He was obsessed with beating Hagler. He was in about the best shape of his career for this fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfkill
* Everybody thought Hagler would win. Sugar defied the odds.
So? This merely asserts Leonard's motivation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfkill
* Hagler was the much bigger man.
And he was stronger. So? These aren't necessarily determining factors in the ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfkill
* Hagler was the far more active fighter.
In the previous 2 years, Hagler fought 14 rounds in 2 bouts. And he was fading fast ... which is why Ray chose that time to fight him. Because he saw that Marvin was slowing down precipitously. As late as 1985, Ray wasn't eager to fight him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selfkill
Anybody trying to discredit Sugar Ray's victory over Hagler are one of two things.

* They resent Sugar for beating their favourite fighter.
* Uneducated.
Idiocy.

Anyone denying that Ray's victory is not only controversial, but also mitigated by opportunistic pre-fight, mid-fight, and post-fight maneuvres that would make the Clintons blush.... is naive.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Wrong. Leonard spent months studying and training for this bout. He was obsessed with beating Hagler. He was in about the best shape of his career for this fight.


So? This merely asserts Leonard's motivation.


And he was stronger. So? These aren't necessarily determining factors in the ring.


In the previous 2 years, Hagler fought 14 rounds in 2 bouts. And he was fading fast ... which is why Ray chose that time to fight him. Because he saw that Marvin was slowing down precipitously. As late as 1985, Ray wasn't eager to fight him.


Idiocy.

Anyone denying that Ray's victory is not only controversial, but also mitigated by opportunistic pre-fight, mid-fight, and post-fight maneuvres that would make the Clintons blush.... is naive.
Excuse me?

Sugar Ray Leonard deserves credit for the win, regardless of how you felt he may have tried to gain an advantage. He also deserves credit for overcoming the naturally bigger man and the more active man. You saying Ray Leonard was in better shape purely on the basis that he was "said" to be obsessed with beating Hagler is nothing but speculation.

Overriding point is, Leonard deserves nothing but credit for beating a man nobody thought he could beat. End of story.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:55 PM   #45
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard: best P4P since Robinson, best welterweight ever, or neither??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
* Leonard's refusal to meet Hagler earlier.
This is a myth. In hindsight it certainly looks that way as Leonard caught Hagler at the right time when he pulled off the upset combined with earlier negotiations which fell through back in 1982.

But Leonard was willing to meet Hagler halfway, which would have meant a fight at 154lbs. Leonard felt at the time that going all the way up to middleweight was a bridge too far as he would be losing speed and natural strength. Hagler the same reasons coming down in weight. And in no way am I siding with Leonard, but Hagler actually managed to weigh as low as 157lbs for his fight with Hamsho. Who knows if coming down another 3lbs would have been extremely difficult.

The fight not coming off when Hagler was closer to his peak or arguably in his peak was a stale mate. Hagler refused to face Leonard just as much as vice versa.
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