Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-01-2008, 11:49 AM   #16
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto
Also, on the point of Hearns being a fast starter and Trinidad being quite the opposite, maybe this would be a factor only if Hearns came out all guns blazing, like against Duran.
This fight is at 147lbs, not 154lbs. Hearns was usually always a fast starter. So we are looking at the big picture here, not just one fight. Hearns started very quickly against Cuevas and other opponents at welterweight. He got off the blocks quicky and never needed time to feel his way into a fight regardless of what weight division he fought in. He started quickly against Duran and Hagler, and Schuler as well. But I tend to take into consideration mostly what each done in the weight division picked for this fight which is 147lbs. Trinidad was a very slow and calculated starter over the first 3-4 rounds. I'll grant you that he was accurate, but usually only against stationary targets. Hearns had more options. He could outbox Trinidad behind the jab or knock him out. I just see this match-up being decided on the styles element more than anything else. Hearns was a fast starter while Trinidad was patient and became vulnerable while doing so.

Only one winner, Hearns.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-01-2008, 12:04 PM   #17
teeto
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Team Ireland Manor, Easing Pabuiao into the life of managing the GOAT
Posts: 14,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
This fight is at 147lbs, not 154lbs. Hearns was usually always a fast starter. So we are looking at the big picture here, not just one fight. Hearns started very quickly against Cuevas and other opponents at welterweight. He got off the blocks quicky and never needed time to feel his way into a fight regardless of what weight division he fought in. He started quickly against Duran and Hagler, and Schuler as well. But I tend to take into consideration mostly what each done in the weight division picked for this fight which is 147lbs. Trinidad was a very slow and calculated starter over the first 3-4 rounds. I'll grant you that he was accurate, but usually only against stationary targets. Hearns had more options. He could outbox Trinidad behind the jab or knock him out. I just see this match-up being decided on the styles element more than anything else. Hearns was a fast starter while Trinidad was patient and became vulnerable while doing so.

Only one winner, Hearns.
I think i made it clear that i was joking about that point, when i went into the thing about Hearns watching a video of Tito before the fight and changing his mind on his tactics.

Okay, good points on the styles, but i know this, what im saying is, that Trinidad can knock out Hearns, and imo,in an exchange this is likely. Maybe not then, im sounding like a nuthugger here because everyone disagrees, but thats really not the case. Trinidad, though his level of comp at the weight was not the very best, was a prolific welterweight, i think its a bit of an injustice that he's not getting a chance here against someone who was not one of history's elite welters. ATG he was, and a very tough h2h test for any of the top guys, would maybe beat most, MAYBE. But not elite legacy-wise there for me, also- how much is Hearns overrated and vice-versa for Tito?
teeto is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 12:39 PM   #18
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto
I think i made it clear that i was joking about that point, when i went into the thing about Hearns watching a video of Tito before the fight and changing his mind on his tactics.

Okay, good points on the styles, but i know this, what im saying is, that Trinidad can knock out Hearns, and imo,in an exchange this is likely. Maybe not then, im sounding like a nuthugger here because everyone disagrees, but thats really not the case. Trinidad, though his level of comp at the weight was not the very best, was a prolific welterweight, i think its a bit of an injustice that he's not getting a chance here against someone who was not one of history's elite welters. ATG he was, and a very tough h2h test for any of the top guys, would maybe beat most, MAYBE. But not elite legacy-wise there for me, also- how much is Hearns overrated and vice-versa for Tito?
They are both all-time great fighters who can punch as hard as anyone in welterweight history. But because they are both devastating punchers, I will not simply say it's 50/50 based on that alone. What needs to be looked at in particular is how they went about their business at welterweight. How good they both were in terms of skill, speed, power, adaptability, and basically how they performed in their respective eras. I just go round in circles and can't see how Trinidad can win. Does he have the power to do so? Absolutley. As does Hearns. It's about their styles more than anything else. When we look at how vulnerable Trinidad was early against much lesser fighters, then it spells DOOM for him. Hearns was stopped late against Leonard, and before then his chin was relatively untested. Why? Because his fluid boxing style, pumping jab, ring generalship, and power meant that he never let his opponents strike and build any momentum. The same can't be said of Trinidad who needed a few rounds before he clicked into gear. He was dropped and shaken against fighters who never had the same power as Hearns or the finishing capabilities. Whats the chances of Hearns going one better than those who floored Trinidad? Logically speaking he does go one better. Hearns doesn't just have the power but in between throwing heavy arillery he has the style to outpoint Trinidad at the same time.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 01:31 PM   #19
Samurai
I lost an avatar bet
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Teddy Atlas jinxed Miguel Cotto
Posts: 1,819
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Hearns
Samurai is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #20
teeto
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Team Ireland Manor, Easing Pabuiao into the life of managing the GOAT
Posts: 14,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
They are both all-time great fighters who can punch as hard as anyone in welterweight history. But because they are both devastating punchers, I will not simply say it's 50/50 based on that alone. What needs to be looked at in particular is how they went about their business at welterweight. How good they both were in terms of skill, speed, power, adaptability, and basically how they performed in their respective eras. I just go round in circles and can't see how Trinidad can win. Does he have the power to do so? Absolutley. As does Hearns. It's about their styles more than anything else. When we look at how vulnerable Trinidad was early against much lesser fighters, then it spells DOOM for him. Hearns was stopped late against Leonard, and before then his chin was relatively untested. Why? Because his fluid boxing style, pumping jab, ring generalship, and power meant that he never let his opponents strike and build any momentum. The same can't be said of Trinidad who needed a few rounds before he clicked into gear. He was dropped and shaken against fighters who never had the same power as Hearns or the finishing capabilities. Whats the chances of Hearns going one better than those who floored Trinidad? Logically speaking he does go one better. Hearns doesn't just have the power but in between throwing heavy arillery he has the style to outpoint Trinidad at the same time.
I hear you on all-points Robbi, i really do. The style matchup isnt good for Trinidad imo because as DLH showed, he never was able to cut the ring off at the highest level, when a GREAT mover (which Hearns was) got in there with him he couldnt do much, add Hearn's pumping jab and its not good for Trinidad's rythm at all. But Trinidad was a great welterweight and he must have some positives, lets just see which of these attributes might be good for him against Hearns.

Well Hearns wouldnt just solely box imo, not against someone who comes to fight, and if Trinidad gets out of the first few slow (on his behalf) rounds, he will start upping his own workrate and be landing something, even if it is sparse, and with that accuracy in his long arms he will get something in there imo. And its just not Hearns' nature to refuse to trade with a guy like Tito. And when someone traded with Tito they were KO'd. I understand that the level of comp at 147 that my last sentence applies to were not on Hearns' level, but he showed this same form against very good opposition (some at higher weights, but in terms of styles you get what i mean). Also, imo Tito was almost on Joe Louis' level in terms of purely finiishing, a great attribute against a man who he could surely hurt.

Just one other thing, i dont think Trinidad, in his prime years at 147, was ever hurt, them KDs were never ever times that he could have been stopped, like Sweet Pea said earlier, it was simply shakey legs.

But i do respect your opinion Robbi, and to be honest you have a very good point and you're not simply underrating Tito, the points you have outlined make a solid case for Tommy, i just feel that Trinidad was more prolific at 147 than people immediately give him credit for, and i think stylistically he also has a chance here. I would never decide a fight simply on one's power combined with the chin of his opponent.
teeto is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 03:01 PM   #21
Hatesrats
"Al Grito De Guerra"
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oxnard, CA
Posts: 28,491
vCash: 5200
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Check page #1, I just made a ticket for this fight...(I tried)
These are two of my fav Fighter's of All-time.
I'll check in later with my pick. (I'm still twisted)
Hatesrats is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 03:21 PM   #22
albeziel
Multi Viral C13
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puerto Rico, where champions are born
Posts: 1,394
vCash: 453
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

This is a fight Tito could win, it is not as easy as saying Hearns will win by KO. Tito had a great punching power, no doubt about it, but there is something that people just don't think of it about Tito's career. When he started his professional career he was a very good boxer with a great agility, very rare in P.R. for someone at that weight with that height and reach.

His jab was always there and therefore his accuracy was always on the high numbers. The thing is that the more experience Tito gained in his career, the more Tito's mentality changed from a boxer to a power puncher.

It is a shame we will never know the outcome but I'll give Tito 60/40 against Hearns.
albeziel is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 03:34 PM   #23
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto
Just one other thing, i dont think Trinidad, in his prime years at 147, was ever hurt, them KDs were never ever times that he could have been stopped, like Sweet Pea said earlier, it was simply shakey legs.
Trinidad was hurt, make no mistake about it. You trying to tell me he was in the same condition as he would have been had he not been knocked down? I sure hope not. Trinidad never stuggled badly with the counts or looked out on his feet, but he wasn't exactly clear headed either. The Lusheing knockdown as a decent blow and if he was in the ring with Hearns that night you can bet your bottom dollar that he would not have survived.

And who said Hearns would box Trinidad and stay away? Certainly not me. As I have said twice already Hearns was a faster starter. He liked to test his opppnents chin early. And we know that Trinidad was vulnerable over the first 3-4 rounds. I'm sure that you can see this as a plain fact that doesn't do Trinidad any favours when anyone gels this match together sensibly and constructively. Hearns also has the option of using his jab laterally when need be if stunned for survival. He has the adaptability to adjust if in trouble. Trinidad on the otherhand always fired back when hurt or covered up. Not as many options.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 03:58 PM   #24
teeto
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Team Ireland Manor, Easing Pabuiao into the life of managing the GOAT
Posts: 14,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Trinidad was hurt, make no mistake about it. You trying to tell me he was in the same condition as he would have been had he not been knocked down? I sure hope not. Trinidad never stuggled badly with the counts or looked out on his feet, but he wasn't exactly clear headed either. The Lusheing knockdown as a decent blow and if he was in the ring with Hearns that night you can bet your bottom dollar that he would not have survived.

And who said Hearns would box Trinidad and stay away? Certainly not me. As I have said twice already Hearns was a faster starter. He liked to test his opppnents chin early. And we know that Trinidad was vulnerable over the first 3-4 rounds. I'm sure that you can see this as a plain fact that doesn't do Trinidad any favours when anyone gels this match together sensibly and constructively. Hearns also has the option of using his jab laterally when need be if stunned for survival. He has the adaptability to adjust if in trouble. Trinidad on the otherhand always fired back when hurt or covered up. Not as many options.
When we say 'hurt', you know what we mean, the Lueshing shot was a decent blow in terms of a clever counter shot, but it was by no means a shot where Lueshing had any right to seriously believe he could finish the fight. And i agreed on your point about the early starting etc. But i also outlined how Trinidad could foreseeably win this fight, and i think he would.

Also, if Hearns was stunned in there with prime Tito, there would be no chance of lateral movement saving the day. Tito was one of the very top handful of FINISHERS ever imo, no1s getting off the hook
teeto is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 04:10 PM   #25
Doppleganger
Il Genio
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 764
vCash: 800
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

There's only a very few select group of men who can beat Thomas Hearns on top of his game at welterweight.

Leonard is one of them and it took a great performance by Leonard to get to Tommy later on in their fight. Leonard had the speed and quickness to avoid most of the bombs coming his way and the chin to take them when they landed. Although I don't think he could have survived a sustained beating from Hearns, he had the athletic ability and skill not to be cornered or to be sucked into a brawl. Tito did not have the mobility around the ring that Leonard had and he also did not have Leonard's chin. There's no way Kevin Lueshing would have floored the 1981 Leonard for example. As Robbi says if Hearns had hit Tito in the same manner that Lueshing did the fight would be over.

Tito is a very good fighter and can certainly knock out Hearns if he is allowed free shots with no possibility of counters. That really isn't going to happen and the pumping jab, long range left hook to the body and right cross of Tommy will have Tito on the defensive if not out. However, the real key to this fight is reach, as it was for Tommy's fight against Cuevas, another bone breaking puncher. In a nutshell Tommy will get off his power punches and jab before Tito can. That spells only one winner for me and it ain't the boy from Puerto Rico.
Doppleganger is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2008, 09:56 PM   #26
Longhhorn71
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,594
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

I like both fighters.

Hearns wins the WW title, defends 3 times, loses to SRL in a unification,.... all in just over 13 months.

He then moves up in weight.

Tito wins the WW title, defends 16 times at that weight (including a unification with Oscar) in just over 6 years.

Tito thens moves up in weight.

My conclusion is the fans never really saw the best Hearns at welter, while you saw the very best of Tito at welter.

Tito would not be lacking in confidence if he fought Hearns.....and he has the power to knock Hearns out.

Hearns himself carries a "big stick" too ...and he can box.

My conclusion it would be Tito by TKO in either San Juan or Las Vegas, and Hearns by K.O. in Detroit.
Longhhorn71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 05:17 AM   #27
BIG DEE
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 261
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

BIG DEE HERE = Hearns KO in 6 after giving Trinidad a beating. Trinidad couldn`t take the punishment Hearns could as he tried to move to higher weights classes and was crushed. He was KOed by Hopkins who was no great shakes as a puncher. While Hearns went toe to toe with a great puncher who was Hagler and yes he lost but he lost magnificently. Trinidad wouldn`t have made it out of the 1st rd in that Hagler fight if it would have been him and not
Hearns.
BIG DEE is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 07:33 AM   #28
bigtime-skills
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Heart of Champions
Posts: 1,213
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Tito's my FAVORITE fighter of the past 15 years, but this isn't fair to him..

Tommy Hearns is probably the hardest person h2h to gauge in history of the welterweight division. Tito made 16 defenses, but Tommy would box Tito and sneak them right hands in much like BHOP did when they fought.

I don't think Tommy would get in a firefight with Tito, he would just keep him on the end of that pumping jab and shoot right hands....

A better and I think more fair matchup would be
154lb Tito who fought Vargas vs 154lb Hearns who beat Duran

Tommy wouldn't be able to take advantage of Tito's slow start as Tito stretched Vargas seconds into that fight and showed he would do ANYTHING to win that night.

Would Tito take the Hitman's right hand that landed on Duran (course NOT)
bigtime-skills is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2008, 09:55 AM   #29
Longhhorn71
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,594
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Great analyses above by my fellow posters.

Keep'em coming.
Longhhorn71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2008, 09:23 PM   #30
markedwardscott
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 583
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Thomas Hearns Vs. Felix Trindad (147)

Hearns by mid round stoppage
markedwardscott is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013