Could any 20-year old fighter beat the Tyson who beat Berbick?

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by prime

It is good to see the "Tyson-was-nothing-but-a hyped-up-front-runner" crowd mostly silenced around these parts for some time now.

I would say that the view on Tyson is quite balanced nowadays. Most recognize that he was really great in his prime, and there aren't too many left who insists that "Mega Tyson" was unbeatable either (with notable exceptions). I think the discussion is very balanced around here overall, even if it is a bit less so on some subjects IMO.

[prime]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

I would say that the view on Tyson is quite balanced nowadays. Most recognize that he was really great in his prime, and there aren't too many left who insists that "Mega Tyson" was unbeatable either (with notable exceptions). I think the discussion is very balanced around here overall, even if it is a bit less so on some subjects IMO.

True.

My personal experience was Tyson's simply looking better on film than hallowed past greats (Tyson over Spinks impressing me more than Louis over Schmeling), discovering this site, reading quite a few dismissive, high-and-mighty opinions on Mike, lowering my opinion of him, feeling like something was amiss suddenly picking 15 guys over Tyson, going back to the film, confirming my prior observations and forever consolidating my respect for this awesome fighter.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by prime

True.

My personal experience was Tyson's simply looking better on film than hallowed past greats (Tyson over Spinks impressing me more than Louis over Schmeling), discovering this site, reading quite a few dismissive, high-and-mighty opinions on Mike, lowering my opinion of him, feeling like something was amiss suddenly picking 15 guys over Tyson, going back to the film, confirming my prior observations and forever consolidating my respect for this awesome fighter.

It's good that you have conviction in your opinions. Many guys here are so knowledgable and argue so well that sometimes you can get to doubt things you really think are self-evident.

Personally, I have been somewhat guilty of dismissing Tyson in the past, mainly because I was so fed up with those who hyped him. I think he showed true greatness at times (Berbick, Spinks for example), but I also think he showed weaknesses against guys like Douglas and Holyfield that just can't be discarded with "that wasn't the real Tyson". I do agree, however, that Tyson wasn't at his best in those fights. Against Holyfield he was definitely some way past his prime, but so was Holyfield.

Awesome as he looked in finishing P. Thomas I couldn't help but wonder how the fight would have looked if Thomas had moved more behind that excellent jab and straight right. And it's hard not to feel that the fight against Douglas gave at least some hint to the answer of that question.

But still, I have Tyson very high in a h2h sense. The only one I would pick quite comfortably over him is Ali, and maybe Foreman.

[Holmes' Jab]

I don't think there's ever been a heavyweight of such a young age as great as Tyson was circa 86/87.

[Holmes' Jab]

Whilst Berbick was the better opponent I've thought for a long time that the most brutal, dominating and sharp Tyson ever looked was perhaps during the Biggs fight. He could've easily forced the stoppage at virtually anytime long before the 7th

[DamonD]

I've said before that the Biggs fight is actually one of my favourite Tyson performances because (even if it's just bourne out of wanting to torture Biggs) the more methodical and precise pace Tyson sets in that fight really gave him a chance to show off more than just the bulldozer approach.

[radianttwilight]

Originally Posted by Foreman Rules

It is funny how even today dumb dumbs still think Tyson was unbeatable at 20 or 22 because he beat Berbick and Spinks a man smaller than he was.

Wanna know something special?

Spinks 212 for his fight with Tyson.

Foreman was 217 for his title-winning performance against Frazier in 1973.

Tyson was 218lbs for the Spinks fight...

If Michael Spinks wasn't a credible opponent because he was "smaller" than Tyson, then maybe prime Foreman wouldn't be a credible opponent either? Since weight = ability, after all.

[Seamus]

Let's remember Berbick was a fairly limited and well... crappy heavyweight. And that era was horrible.

[Loewe]

Originally Posted by prime

No. This is why he is the youngest heavyweight champion ever.

Mike Tyson against Berbick is an exhibition of close-to-the-greatest heavyweight fighter that ever lived.

Both is wrong, watch Clay-Williams or Louis-Schmeling. Those are nearer on what you suggest.
Also, Tyson maybe the youngest beltholder ever but when he became champ he was older than Patterson was when he became champ.

[Holmes' Jab]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

The young Ali in the earlier stages of his career that was defensively very open and getting knocked down by guys like Cooper, Banks, and hurt by Doug Jones is going to beat the peak Tyson of the late 80's? Tyson by KO over that Ali.

I don't think that Ali would show the same clowning and carelessness against Tyson. If he did he'd be in trouble, otherwise he'd win a closely contested UD.

[Ezzard]

How many thread topics can be devised to try and manipulate a situation where Tyson is the greatest ever fighter?

[Loewe]

Originally Posted by Ezzard

How many thread topics can be devised to try and manipulate a situation where Tyson is the greatest ever fighter?

Just wait and watch and you´ll see them all.

[Holmes' Jab]

Tyson certainly ain't the greatest ever, but a peak period version would make for a very tough assignment for virtually any great. You're kidding youself if you think otherwise IMO. I think he'd beat some of 'em.

[Ezzard]

Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab

Tyson certainly ain't the greatest ever, but a peak period version would make for a very tough assignment for virtually any great. You're kidding youself if you think otherwise IMO. I think he'd beat some of 'em.

Agreed. That's how I see it. But he's not one of the elite top drawer HWs no matter how you try to splice it.

[Holmes' Jab]

Originally Posted by Ezzard

he's not one of the elite top drawer HWs no matter how you try to splice it.

If you count the 'top drawer heavyweights' to be 'top 10' then he's there in my view. I've him at #8 infact and think that's fair. Obviously he's a bit below the likes of Holmes, Lewis, Liston even further behind the consensus 'top 2'.