I Larry Holmes had never been

janitor · 07-02-2008, 06:22 PM

Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?

ChrisPontius · 07-02-2008, 06:27 PM

I'll wait for John Thomas to fill use up, using words that rhyme with "age" and start with a P.

janitor · 07-02-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

I'll wait for John Thomas to fill use up, using words that rhyme with "age" and start with a P.

P**e might have had a slice of the pie in the scenario that I have outlined but I am guessing that he would not have held the title for long.

SuzieQ49 · 07-02-2008, 06:35 PM

most people like witherspoon , but I am going to go with a wildcard here......Pinklon Thomas.

janitor · 07-02-2008, 06:36 PM

I get the feeling that Mike Weaver might have slipped through the net at some point.

ChrisPontius · 07-02-2008, 06:38 PM

Probably not. An off the top of my head scenario: Page was Holmes' mandatory, so say he wins the title in 1980 or 81. He now has the money to triple up his amount of coke, food and what not. Witherspoon, in looking excellent, takes over perhaps a year later, only to lose it to Thomas, who in turn looks spectacular around 83-84. He might keep it untill 86 when a young Tyson takes over.

So, i don't think there would be any dominant champion, but on the flipside, Page, Witherspoon and Thomas would all be very impressive during a select few nights. Something you could also, to a certain extent, say about Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer and Carnera, to go back to the 30's. Although i'm more impressed by 80's fighters than those if we're talking about their peaks, with the exception of Schmeling.

Weaver would probably end up as the Quarry of the 80's. Almost like he is now.

mr. magoo · 07-02-2008, 06:41 PM

Frankly, I think the divison would have been in deep trouble. There were too many fighters who had poor training habits, bad managment, and for whatever reason, that was a generation of people ( not only fighters ), who did a lot of drugs...

I think its possible that men like Witherspoon, Cooney, and Weaver could have gone a lot further than they did, without Holmes taking center stage. Dokes, Page, and Thomas would not have had my confidence given that they seemed to have had the most amount of trouble out of the bunch. If Cooney had not fought Holmes when he did, he may have had a good chance of taking a fragment of the crown, and slowly built up his confidence and experience levels, as would have Witherspoon.

As it currently stands, I rate Tim Witherspoon as the third best heavyweight of the 1980's behind Tyson and Holmes. In the abscence of Holmes, he may very well have been bumped up to #2. For whatever its worth, he was the only alpha champ to win fragments on two occasions, and defeated a larger list of top raters than any of the others. Perhaps Don King would have made a greater effort at trying to help him succeed, given that he would have had little else to work with...

A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis? Who would have been champion? Would this champion have been black or white? What would his title defenses have looked like, and how long would he have reigned?

Personally, I think the 1930's/1940's would have suffered terribly. Hell, Billy Conn may have taken the title for a brief period in that era, and maybe Braddock could have pulled a Dempsey stunt for a few years. Schmeling may have reigned for a bit too. The scariest thought that crosses my mind, is what if Tony " Two Ass " Galento had won the crown???

janitor · 07-02-2008, 06:45 PM

I suspect that in the "no Holmes scenario", lineage would have been re-established by a fight between Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers.

So presumably Shavers would be the next lineal champion after Ali and from there it is anybodys guess.

janitor · 07-02-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis? Who would have been champion? Would this champion have been black or white? What would his title defenses have looked like, and how long would he have reigned?

Personally, I think the 1930's/1940's would have suffered terribly. Hell, Billy Conn may have taken the title for a brief period in that era, and maybe Braddock could have pulled a Dempsey stunt for a few years. Schmeling may have reigned for a bit too. The scariest thought that crosses my mind, is what if Tony " Two Ass " Galento had won the crown???

I have given a fair amount of thought to that one myself but it perhaps requires its own thread.

The likely suspects in chronological order would be-

Max Schmeling
Tommy Far
Lou Nova
Bob Pastor
Max Baer
Billy Conn

mr. magoo · 07-02-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

I suspect that in the "no Holmes scenario", lineage would have been re-established by a fight between Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers.

So presumably Shavers would be the next lineal champion after Ali and from there it is anybodys guess.

In 1979-1980, perhaps, but no further. Both of those men were shot by that point and either struggling or losing to journeyman. Some even feel that Norton was lucky to recieve a draw against scott Ledoux, while Shavers was beaten in 1980 by Tex Cobb. These guys would not have reigned long, and for the brief period that they had undue lineal status, it would have been viewed as a joke. John Tate had talent, but we saw in reality what happened to him against Mike Weaver. Had Weaver not suffered injuries causing him to only fight once between 1980-1982, Don King may have viewed him as a gold mine, and been less likely to shove Dokes into the WBA's throne. Weaver was well chizzled, exciting to watch and very respectable personality wise. But he wouldn't last.... As we already know.......

SuzieQ49 · 07-02-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

I have given a fair amount of thought to that one myself but it perhaps requires its own thread.

The likely suspects in chronological order would be-

Max Schmeling
Tommy Far
Lou Nova
Bob Pastor
Max Baer
Billy Conn

I disagree

I think this is how it would have played out

Max Schmeling
Lem Franklin
Billy Conn
Elmer Ray
Lee Q Murray
Jimmy Bivins
Jersey Joe Walcott

maybe sneak harry bobo in there

SuzieQ49 · 07-02-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis?

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

mr. magoo · 07-02-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.

LOL

I'm not making fun of you Suzie. I just think its funny ( but not bad ), that you're one of the few people who mention the names of some of the black fighters of that era, that many of us know nothing about. Lee Q Murray?? I don't even know who the hell that is.. Lem Franklin, I've at least heard of. I think he should have gotten a title shot before Abe Simon did. Elmer Ray was another one I've heard of, but know little about him. Jimmy Bivens, I guess was a big name. Outside of that, I can't think of any of the old black fighters of the time. Of course there's Turkey Thompson, but I don't really know anything about him either.

Its all good my friend. Maybe you should start a thread talking about this bunch of forgotten men.

Mendoza · 07-02-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?

YES. Don King would have embraced Witherpsoon. A focused Withepsoon could have been the man from 1983 until Tyson matured around 1986.

rekcutnevets · 07-03-2008, 12:11 AM

Norton would have been the man until he faced Shavers. Shavers would hold the crown for a year of so, and be unseated by Weaver. Weaver would lose to Dokes.

Cooney would come along and appear to clean out the division; defeating Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Dokes, and Witherspoon. Cooney would then lose to Pinklon Thomas. Thomas would lose to Page. Page would lose to Carl Williams.

Tyson would come in and really clean house.

07-02-2008, 06:22 PM	#1
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,047 vCash: 1000	I Larry Holmes had never been Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing. This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s. My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are- What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been? Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"? Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?
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07-02-2008, 06:27 PM	#2
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 11,749 vCash: 238	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been I'll wait for John Thomas to fill use up, using words that rhyme with "age" and start with a P.
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07-02-2008, 06:35 PM	#4
SuzieQ49 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston, Ma Posts: 12,959 vCash: 1000	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been most people like witherspoon , but I am going to go with a wildcard here......Pinklon Thomas.
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07-02-2008, 06:36 PM	#5
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,047 vCash: 1000	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been I get the feeling that Mike Weaver might have slipped through the net at some point.
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07-02-2008, 06:38 PM	#6
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 11,749 vCash: 238	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been Probably not. An off the top of my head scenario: Page was Holmes' mandatory, so say he wins the title in 1980 or 81. He now has the money to triple up his amount of coke, food and what not. Witherspoon, in looking excellent, takes over perhaps a year later, only to lose it to Thomas, who in turn looks spectacular around 83-84. He might keep it untill 86 when a young Tyson takes over. So, i don't think there would be any dominant champion, but on the flipside, Page, Witherspoon and Thomas would all be very impressive during a select few nights. Something you could also, to a certain extent, say about Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer and Carnera, to go back to the 30's. Although i'm more impressed by 80's fighters than those if we're talking about their peaks, with the exception of Schmeling. Weaver would probably end up as the Quarry of the 80's. Almost like he is now.
Top

07-02-2008, 06:41 PM	#7
mr. magoo Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois USA Posts: 12,503 vCash: 1000	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been Frankly, I think the divison would have been in deep trouble. There were too many fighters who had poor training habits, bad managment, and for whatever reason, that was a generation of people ( not only fighters ), who did a lot of drugs... I think its possible that men like Witherspoon, Cooney, and Weaver could have gone a lot further than they did, without Holmes taking center stage. Dokes, Page, and Thomas would not have had my confidence given that they seemed to have had the most amount of trouble out of the bunch. If Cooney had not fought Holmes when he did, he may have had a good chance of taking a fragment of the crown, and slowly built up his confidence and experience levels, as would have Witherspoon. As it currently stands, I rate Tim Witherspoon as the third best heavyweight of the 1980's behind Tyson and Holmes. In the abscence of Holmes, he may very well have been bumped up to #2. For whatever its worth, he was the only alpha champ to win fragments on two occasions, and defeated a larger list of top raters than any of the others. Perhaps Don King would have made a greater effort at trying to help him succeed, given that he would have had little else to work with... A more interesting question would be, What would Joe Louis's era have looked like without Joe Louis? Who would have been champion? Would this champion have been black or white? What would his title defenses have looked like, and how long would he have reigned? Personally, I think the 1930's/1940's would have suffered terribly. Hell, Billy Conn may have taken the title for a brief period in that era, and maybe Braddock could have pulled a Dempsey stunt for a few years. Schmeling may have reigned for a bit too. The scariest thought that crosses my mind, is what if Tony " Two Ass " Galento had won the crown???
Top

07-02-2008, 06:45 PM	#8
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,047 vCash: 1000	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been I suspect that in the "no Holmes scenario", lineage would have been re-established by a fight between Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers. So presumably Shavers would be the next lineal champion after Ali and from there it is anybodys guess.
Top

07-03-2008, 12:11 AM	#15
rekcutnevets Black Sash East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: InYourMouth, NC Posts: 6,544 vCash: 1000	Re: I Larry Holmes had never been Norton would have been the man until he faced Shavers. Shavers would hold the crown for a year of so, and be unseated by Weaver. Weaver would lose to Dokes. Cooney would come along and appear to clean out the division; defeating Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Dokes, and Witherspoon. Cooney would then lose to Pinklon Thomas. Thomas would lose to Page. Page would lose to Carl Williams. Tyson would come in and really clean house.
Top