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Old 07-03-2008, 01:25 AM   #16
zadfrak
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Cooney was not going to beat that level of competition without some losses. And Weaver would've never been on the map--he was a California journeyman with a mediocre record and that Holmes fight made his career. W/O a Larry Holmes bout, Mike just goes on winning a few and losing a few, but wouldn't have even cracked the top 10.

I might make a wildcard guy like a Coetzee or a Tate to be the best. That matchup would've never occured & Arum would've been putting his guys in with a different level of competition or the old name fighters like a Ron Lyle type guy instead. And without Weaver--who was the only heavy with late round ko power on the scene, Tate might box his way to some additional defenses before ultimately getting licked.

Coetzee would've fought in his backyard and there just aren't that many heavyweight road warriors from the U.S., so he may have held onto the title for awhile with ideal matchmaking.

Without Holmes, what would Don King have done?
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Old 07-03-2008, 03:02 AM   #17
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

It's very difficult in selecting one fighter to be dominant or relatively dominant during this period. All the guys mentioned so far had talent, but were erratic. That includes Witherspoon, who seems to be one of the leading candidates.
Thomas is another who could have possibly reigned for a while longer than he did, but with that drugs habit it's unlikely.

None of these guys had the combination of unwavering focus and outright talent to enjoy an extended run at the top, imo.
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Old 07-03-2008, 04:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.
Maybe based on ability, but would they get their shot?

Remember that Louis was extraordinairy well-behaved for a black man with great management that got him a shot, even if they had to concede a percentage of future purses. I don't think any of the black men you mentioned had the management to get a shot. Maybe one or two of them.
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Old 07-03-2008, 04:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Weaver's defeat to Dokes does smell fishy. There was a lot of talk about the fight being allowed to continue then didn't they draw in the rematch...?

I'd imagine Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Cooney, Page, Witherspoon, Thomas and Berbick would have passed the title around.

I'd go with Spoon and Thomas to do the best of them all...
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Without Holmes the titles would have changed hands regularly, just at the WBA line and the WBC 1984-'86 did when Holmes was around.

Those guys - Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Tubbs etc. - get a bad rap for losing the title so often, and Holmes gets a lot of credit for hanging on to his title BUT it should be noted that it was HOLMES who was sprinkling all those easy defences in his reign.
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
lem franklin, harry bobo, billy conn elmer ray lee q murray jimmy bivins all these top guys would have won/lost the title back and forth. these were the best guys out there.
Lee Q Murray is a fighter that people on this site dont know much about, even relative to sombody like Lem Franklin, yet you and indeed some of his contemporaries hold him in high regard.

You could do worse than make a thread on him to bring people up to speed.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:52 AM   #22
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven
Without Holmes the titles would have changed hands regularly, just at the WBA line and the WBC 1984-'86 did when Holmes was around.

Those guys - Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Tubbs etc. - get a bad rap for losing the title so often, and Holmes gets a lot of credit for hanging on to his title BUT it should be noted that it was HOLMES who was sprinkling all those easy defences in his reign.
True but people look back on Page, Coetzee, Thomas etc... and make them out to be better than they were...

I mean Holmes fought Bey whose previous fight was a win over Page. Just when Thomas is getting a lot of support and opinion behind him he loses to Berbick.

In many ways though I see where you're coming from... Holmes' opponents when on to do better things after he beat them. So you migth argue that he got to guys like Spoon, Berbick, Weaver, Cooney, Williams and Frazier before they were fully rounded fighters...
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Say that Larry Holmes had taken up figure skating instead of boxing.

This is a rather interesting what if when you look at the eratic talent of the 80s. Clearly the lineal title would have changed hands frequently like it did in the early 30s.

My questions to those more knowledgable about the 80s than myself are-

What would the lineage of the heavyweight title have been?

Who would have capitalized on Homses absence to become "the man"?

Could anybody have been a dominant force even breifly?
Until the rise of Tyson nobody would have dominated . Talent wise the 80s was one of the best eras. Work ethic wise it was one of the worst. Only Holmes and Tyon had the determination to stay on top (and even Tyson faltered).
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

I rank Spinks number 3, after Holmes and Tyson in that era. Tim Witherspoon didnt take over like these guys. IMO Spinks, Tyson and Holmes were the big 3 of the heavyweights in the 1980's.
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Old 07-03-2008, 03:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
I rank Spinks number 3, after Holmes and Tyson in that era. Tim Witherspoon didnt take over like these guys. IMO Spinks, Tyson and Holmes were the big 3 of the heavyweights in the 1980's.
Spinks is not number 3 aside from beating an old Holmes controversially Spinks did not do much in the era.
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Spinks beat Holmes, and Cooney. Also he held the lineal title for a while before Tyson ripped it from him. Sure he may not have beating the best in the heavyweights. But I think his win over Holmes, and lineal title rein should place him 3rd.
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Old 07-03-2008, 05:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Spinks did barely any better against an older Holmes than Carl Williams.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

whats everybody's fav.

i'm gonna list some peeps


we got

mike weaver
ken norton
greg page
michael dokes
leon spinks
michael spinks
mr.Snipes
The Truth
gerry cooney
The Pink
terrible Tim Witherspoon
John Tate



it's hard to say as everone has noted all are very talented but just didnt have there mind focussed on boxing, there mind on celebrity and there mind...covered in white powder. point is none were really on top form to be the best.

i would pick maybe thomas. his chin is rock solid he has a great boxing mind and can back you up with good power. he also came in shape very fequently

my second choice would prolly been the truth. amazing jab lovely boxing skills. got a good go against holmes and if holmes wasnt here he would of been a champ mos def.

thomas and williams for me
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:56 PM   #29
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

Pinklon Thomas and Witherspoon would of done the best. But like most of the other posters have already said, they were all so inconsistent that the title would of changed hands pretty regularly.
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Old 07-03-2008, 11:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: I Larry Holmes had never been

1 Dont Think Anyone Would Have Been Dominant But Holmes May Have Not Been Dominant If He Faced The Likes Of Weaver(prime) Thomas,dokes,page,coetzee,tate, Ona Good Night Any Of Them Had A Chance Of Beating Holmes Or Each Other
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