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Old 07-08-2008, 10:24 AM   #16
Stonehands89
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Duran got clearly, if not completely, outboxed by Hagler. I think that in and of itself is a worry for Duran, because his key advantage in his fight with Lamotta is supposed to be his skill

If he is getting clearly outboxed by Hagler, I don't see exactly what chance he'd have of keeping Lamotta off him, and since I don't think he can, I don't see what type of chance he'd have outduking Lamotta in the trenches.

I can't really see the relevance of the Barkley fight here. Barkley was a good puncher, but totally lacking in infighting nous. If you want to draw the implication from the Barkley fight that Duran can take any punch Lamotta has to give him, that's fine. But this fight isn't going to be decided by who can knock who out. It will be decided by who will impose himself on the other, and I see Lamotta doing that more often than not thoughout a fight.
You seem to impose a double standard here. In sum, you are arguing that

1. "If Duran couldn't outbox Hagler, he cannot outbox Lamotta."

and

2. "The Barkley is irrelevant, but Lamotta will impose his will on Duran."

1. Hagler was a hocus pocus southpaw with a complex style. Lamotta was neither. Hagler's outboxing Duran, which I concede, does not point towards the prospect of Lamotta's outboxing him in the least. Additionally, it is not really boxing finesse that keeps the other guy off of you. It is effective and strong punching. Duran had evolved into a serious counterpuncher by the time he reached 160. Lamotta came in face first, though with underrated skill. Lamotta will get popped and he will be in there against one of the best counterpunchers in any division.

2. Iran Barkley brought the same assets that you believe will make the difference for Lamotta -the imposition of will and aggression. Barkley was aggressive as hell in that bout. And he did well inside throughout that fight. Those shots to the body were the most vicious that anyone ever did to Duran in 120 fights. Those short left hooks were gorgeous. And redundant. If Barkley, fighting aggressively and with much pressure on the older smaller man could not break Duran or prevent him from coming on in the end, I do not see Lamotta succeeding. Lamotta's advantage here is not skill and will not be power, it will be aggression and pressure as you state -the same as Barkley.

I will say that I am less confident that Duran will take it over 15 than I am that he will take it over 12.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
You seem to impose a double standard here. In sum, you are arguing that

1. "If Duran couldn't outbox Hagler, he cannot outbox Lamotta."

and

2. "The Barkley is irrelevant, but Lamotta will impose his will on Duran."

1. Hagler was a hocus pocus southpaw with a complex style. Lamotta was neither. Hagler's outboxing Duran, which I concede, does not point towards the prospect of Lamotta's outboxing him in the least. Additionally, it is not really boxing finesse that keeps the other guy off of you. It is effective and strong punching. Duran had evolved into a serious counterpuncher by the time he reached 160. Lamotta came in face first, though with underrated skill. Lamotta will get popped and he will be in there against one of the best counterpunchers in any division.
I don't see Lamotta 'outboxing' Duran at all. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Duran has his boxing ability going for him in this fight. Good as that is, it still gave him a lopsided loss (to any impartial viewer) to Hagler, who whilst a fine and better boxer than Lamotta, shouldn't have outboxed Duran so easily if Duran is hoping to outbox Lamotta, becuase Lamotta will employ a different strategy which will further counter Duran than what Hagler did. Hagler basically fought the fight ON DURAN'S TERMS, and still beat him easily. Lamotta will not fight the fight on Duran's terms, and I don't see Duran's boxing ability being enough to offset him from this win. I see Lamotta doing what he does best - imposing his will on Duran and outfighting him in the trenches with his greater strength and ability to walk through shots. Where Hagler took the less painful option, opting to outox Duran, I see Jake taking the more painful option, outgutting Duran.

Quote:
2. Iran Barkley brought the same assets that you believe will make the difference for Lamotta -the imposition of will and aggression. Barkley was aggressive as hell in that bout. And he did well inside throughout that fight. Those shots to the body were the most vicious that anyone ever did to Duran in 120 fights. Those short left hooks were gorgeous. And redundant. If Barkley, fighting aggressively and with much pressure on the older smaller man could not break Duran or prevent him from coming on in the end, I do not see Lamotta succeeding. Lamotta's advantage here is not skill and will not be power, it will be aggression and pressure as you state -the same as Barkley.
Barkley's only advantage over Lamotta was power. He does not have the stamina, body strength, ability to take a shot, or (much as you disagree) the ability to fight on the inside like Lamotta does. Barkley through some punishing shots, that I can't deny, but he is not a fighter that can clinch, and maul and rough a fighter up as he can take them out with sharp shots.


Quote:
I will say that I am less confident that Duran will take it over 15 than I am that he will take it over 12.
As am I, though the difference is that I think Duran will lose 7-5 in a 12 rounder, and perhaps 9-6 or a little wider in a 15 rounder.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

This is actually an intriguing match up... La Motta is bigger and stronger and can throw a lot of leather... On paper it's a mismatch but style wise everything is with Duran.

Roberto was never in top shape above 147. Even for Moore and Hagler his body was not as it should have been.

Thinking that Hagler beat Duran approx 10-5 (not my card just a sort of estimation of how most saw it) then I can see this one going 8-7 one way or another...
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

One highly regarded middlweight who i think Duran really could beat is James Toney.

Toney just doesn't have the footwork.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
I don't see Lamotta 'outboxing' Duran at all. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Duran has his boxing ability going for him in this fight. Good as that is, it still gave him a lopsided loss (to any impartial viewer) to Hagler, who whilst a fine and better boxer than Lamotta, shouldn't have outboxed Duran so easily if Duran is hoping to outbox Lamotta, becuase Lamotta will employ a different strategy which will further counter Duran than what Hagler did. Hagler basically fought the fight ON DURAN'S TERMS, and still beat him easily. Lamotta will not fight the fight on Duran's terms, and I don't see Duran's boxing ability being enough to offset him from this win. I see Lamotta doing what he does best - imposing his will on Duran and outfighting him in the trenches with his greater strength and ability to walk through shots. Where Hagler took the less painful option, opting to outox Duran, I see Jake taking the more painful option, outgutting Duran.
--That is both a clarified and a fair position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Barkley's only advantage over Lamotta was power. He does not have the stamina, body strength, ability to take a shot, or (much as you disagree) the ability to fight on the inside like Lamotta does. Barkley through some punishing shots, that I can't deny, but he is not a fighter that can clinch, and maul and rough a fighter up as he can take them out with sharp shots.
I would agree that Lamotta had more skill inside than Iran -in fact Iran never looked as good as he did against Duran -not before and definetely not after. He rose to the occasion due to that fantastic defeat of Hearns, his becoming a champion, and his personal vendetta against Duran on behalf of his friend and fellow New Yorker, the late Davey Moore.

However, I would take issue with your view that Lamotta had more "body strength". It may be a matter of how we define body strength, but I'd give Iran the nod in terms of physical presence -size, strength, etc. He was 6'1 with superior measurements all around compared t Lamotta who was only an inch taller than Duran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
As am I, though the difference is that I think Duran will lose 7-5 in a 12 rounder, and perhaps 9-6 or a little wider in a 15 rounder.
Well, your making it competitive is fair. I just don't see Lamotta's pressure being enough. It never was against Duran. And I don't think he had the kind of physical size and strength enough to make the difference here either. I think that Duran's skill, counterpunching, and ability to angle around pressure fighters is being dismissed along with his own capable strength factor.

I can't argue to stridently, because Duran would be expected to be the underdog against any MW great -and well he should be.

I'll say one thing, the combined malice in this ring though would require an exorcist.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

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Originally Posted by Mantequilla
One highly regarded middlweight who i think Duran really could beat is James Toney.

Toney just doesn't have the footwork.
That's an interesting observation, although the Toney that was a study in geometry in the first McCallum fight would be a serious challenge to any skilled great. Toney was masterful. As was McCallum.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

IMO beating a Barkley and beating a LaMotta are barely comparable, Jake is a different animal entirely. Barkley was a good tough middle, but not even close to the same league.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
IMO beating a Barkley and beating a LaMotta are barely comparable, Jake is a different animal entirely. Barkley was a good tough middle, but not even close to the same league.
Don't think anyone is arguing that... The difference between La Motta and Barkley must be offset by the difference between the Duran who beat Iran and the Duran who lost to Marvin.
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:22 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Is this a prime Jake LaMotta Vs. Roberto Duran from the Hagler fight?
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezzard
Don't think anyone is arguing that...

I'm not 100% sure.....

Quote:
The difference between La Motta and Barkley must be offset by the difference between the Duran who beat Iran and the Duran who lost to Marvin.
I don't give either much show at all. LaMotta is criminally underrated now, many seem to think he is some sort of unskilled face first brawler. Duran comes off good vs Hagler but the truth is Marvin gave him far too much leeway and still won comfortably. Roberto was quite tired at more than one junction but Hagler didn't up the ante nor keep it up at some points. Hagler was also the stronger infighter the times they came together. Roberto IMO will be very vulnerable at 160 to someone taking it to him with such intensity as LaMotta will. There will be no room to breath and no respite at any point. Roberto will be very tired by the mid point of the bout IMO. His superior skill will be smothered and i see about a 9-6 type fight, possibly even 10-5. The chances of either getting stopped is extremely remote and then some.

Middleweight is not really Roberto's place, even with his two superb showings there. Full credit for those two examples, incredible considering what had gone on prior for him career wise and what stage he was at. Personally tho i'm not sure i give him much chance against the top couple of levels there.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I'm not 100% sure.....



I don't give either much show at all. LaMotta is criminally underrated now, many seem to think he is some sort of unskilled face first brawler. Duran comes off good vs Hagler but the truth is Marvin gave him far too much leeway and still won comfortably. Roberto was quite tired at more than one junction but Hagler didn't up the ante nor keep it up at some points. Hagler was also the stronger infighter the times they came together. Roberto IMO will be very vulnerable at 160 to someone taking it to him with such intensity as LaMotta will. There will be no room to breath and no respite at any point. Roberto will be very tired by the mid point of the bout IMO. His superior skill will be smothered and i see about a 9-6 type fight, possibly even 10-5. The chances of either getting stopped is extremely remote and then some.

Middleweight is not really Roberto's place, even with his two superb showings there. Full credit for those two examples, incredible considering what had gone on prior for him career wise and what stage he was at. Personally tho i'm not sure i give him much chance against the top couple of levels there.
In many ways I agree but Duran fed off offensive fighters. La Motta was a great. He has strength but I've neevr seen anyone really use it effectively against Duran and he fought a lot of men naturally bigger than stronger than him.

Both men have undervalued defences... Duran will want Jake to lead and Jake will oblige, that's the only way he ever fought. I also think Jake handled the big occassion better than Hagler and will not stand off.

Again though, Hagler's performance against Duran was Roberto's plan. He got Hagler to lead and marvin was unsure of himself once this happened. Leonard got him to do the exact same thing.

Anyway, at first glance I thought la Motta wins, mismatch, but Duran has a lot of skill and style advantages here
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:14 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
IMO beating a Barkley and beating a LaMotta are barely comparable, Jake is a different animal entirely. Barkley was a good tough middle, but not even close to the same league.
I don't feel like rereading the thread, but I remember that it was I who made the comparison between Jake and Iran -but it was not in terms of anything except for an asset or 2 that they share -physical strength/presence and applied pressure. It was a retort to a few posts that asserted that "Duran couldn't handle the strength and the pressure that Jake would bring."

I brought out Iran because he formed his whole plan around pressure and body punching and aggression against a 37 year old Duran and it wasn't enough. It's something tangible to think about.

Lamotta is leagues above Barkley!
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

this would be an awsome bloodbath of a fight whats intresting is jake is bigger and stronger with a granite chin,but duran prob. could hit a little harder--? close and definatly a more skilled boxer it depends on the era if a cutup jake would lose via tko or jake relentlessly bashed durans body for a dec. or possibly jake pretending to be hurt snaps forward and drops duran by suprise i simply cant decide but an awsome matchup
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:29 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

you seem to be forgetting that lamotta is a real southpaw who changed to orthodox in order to get fights in new york because very few people would fight southpaws.so duran is no hocus pocus southpaw that would faze lamottas skill.as a matter of fact in many of lamottas fights that have been filmed he frequently switches to southpaw.lamotta vs duran very close to call could go either way any time. both men equally matched, both phsycos and morons in the sence that they would win at all costs.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jake LaMotta vs. Roberto Duran

Duran - Better boxer, harder puncher
LaMotta - Although just 5-8" tall he had a huge upper body and looked like a lightheavyweight. Was a brilliant infighter and had one of the best chins ever.

Result - Duran could outbox Jake in spurts but the Bronx Bull's superior natural size and strength start to show through. He starts to wear Duran and Duran realizes that staying in the trenches with LaMotta proves futile. Duran was one the smartest fighters in history and will try to fight Jake the way he fought Hagler.

LaMotta by comfortable UD
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