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Old 07-08-2008, 03:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

I cant see Bowe winning this.

I think it would be a lot like the Golotta fight except that Liston would keep his head and close the deal.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
not nearly as overated as ur avater boy lennox lewis. Bowe was the more talented big man.
Yes thats why Lennox stopped Bowe once and why Bowe ducked Lennox as champ on several occasions and why Lennox ko'd Golota in 1 after Andrew beat Bowe into retirement

Lennox went to have a long dominating career. Both men technically beat every man they faced.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Bowe at his best was more talented AND more skilled than Lewis. That being said, he didn't have a quarter of Lewis's character. Lewis is the greater and not by a little either.
More skilled?

Bowe couldn't throw a straight or short right hand to save his life. Not to mention his defence was nearly non-existant; even journeymen had a 50% connect ratio and i'll bet that this was at least as big a factor as his lacking training habits were in to his fast decline.

As for more talented, that's debatable as well. We do know that Lewis stopped him in the amateurs, that Lewis has more power and can throw any punch in the book, unlike Bowe. Handspeed is about equal, timing and footwork/speed go to Lewis.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Bowe at his best was more talented AND more skilled than Lewis. That being said, he didn't have a quarter of Lewis's character. Lewis is the greater and not by a little either.
No he was'nt Bowe at his best had no defense and could not handle a jab and was outjabbed by anyone who threw a jab.Even reckless early 90s Lewis was better defensivelly then any version of Bowe.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

No defense unable to handle a jabable to be outjabbed by anyone = Bowe getting the the shit beaten out of him in a Golota like fight.
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Liston should win this one. Bowe has tendency to get hit often and with Liston's reach and power, that could pose a large problem. I'd pick Liston by stoppage.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
More skilled?

Bowe couldn't throw a straight or short right hand to save his life. Not to mention his defence was nearly non-existant; even journeymen had a 50% connect ratio and i'll bet that this was at least as big a factor as his lacking training habits were in to his fast decline.

As for more talented, that's debatable as well. We do know that Lewis stopped him in the amateurs, that Lewis has more power and can throw any punch in the book, unlike Bowe. Handspeed is about equal, timing and footwork/speed go to Lewis.
Much has been made about Bowe's difficulty with a jab and his allegedly porous defense. Name 3 HWs who did not have windows of opportunity due to their imperfect technique. You are ignoring everything else.

Lewis's ability to throw any punch in the book is one aspect of a skill set. He was among the most formidable offensive machines I ever saw.

Watching Bowe apply his trade against a prime Holyfield and comparing it to any number of Lewis's bouts reveal plainly that Bowe could counter, was excellent inside, could angle, slip, weave, parry, and had a versatile command of boxing skill. I was shocked at the level of his skill. Lewis was simply less impressive in terms of skill -not offensive domination that is really due to his physical assets. Lewis throws long shots from outside, clinches, leans, leans back, and jumps backwards. Some of his shots were anything but textbook shots. I see far less rythym, never mind a more limited skill set.

It worked very well for him because he utilitzed his size and reach, but there were developmental holes. I saw them, and frankly I'm surprised that my European counterparts have not.

Futch taught Bowe well. Bowe was lazy and arrogant and made a big mistake in staying with Rockhead Newman. Bowe did not reach his potential and his legacy has suffered. While Lewis enjoys and deserves his place in boxing as a successful and respected HBO commentator, Bowe laments, is riddled with regret, but deserves what he got no less. But let's not argue that he was a technical dunce. Because he was not.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Could go either way, I'd say. This is one of the closer HW match-ups I can think of.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:41 AM   #24
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Bowe at his best had the tools to defeat Liston. He was bigger, at least as strong, his jab was equal, infighting equal. The Bowe of 1992-93 could upset Liston. Needless to say, the Bowe who showed great courage but diminished skills against Golota would almost certainly lose to Liston. Maybe even by kayo.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:51 AM   #25
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Bowe got hit too much and struggled against fighters with a good jab. Liston mid round KO.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Much has been made about Bowe's difficulty with a jab and his allegedly porous defense. Name 3 HWs who did not have windows of opportunity due to their imperfect technique. You are ignoring everything else.

Lewis's ability to throw any punch in the book is one aspect of a skill set. He was among the most formidable offensive machines I ever saw.

Watching Bowe apply his trade against a prime Holyfield and comparing it to any number of Lewis's bouts reveal plainly that Bowe could counter, was excellent inside, could angle, slip, weave, parry, and had a versatile command of boxing skill. I was shocked at the level of his skill. Lewis was simply less impressive in terms of skill -not offensive domination that is really due to his physical assets. Lewis throws long shots from outside, clinches, leans, leans back, and jumps backwards. Some of his shots were anything but textbook shots. I see far less rythym, never mind a more limited skill set.

It worked very well for him because he utilitzed his size and reach, but there were developmental holes. I saw them, and frankly I'm surprised that my European counterparts have not.

Futch taught Bowe well. Bowe was lazy and arrogant and made a big mistake in staying with Rockhead Newman. Bowe did not reach his potential and his legacy has suffered. While Lewis enjoys and deserves his place in boxing as a successful and respected HBO commentator, Bowe laments, is riddled with regret, but deserves what he got no less. But let's not argue that he was a technical dunce. Because he was not.
There is no ''alleged'' porous defense Bowe's defense was horrendous and no he could not handle a jab he was outjabbed by everyone who could throw a left

Bowe had some technical skill but the only technical thing he stands out for is his infighting ability for a big man everything else Lewis surpasses him.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:23 PM   #27
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by godking
There is no ''alleged'' porous defense Bowe's defense was horrendous and no he could not handle a jab he was outjabbed by everyone who could throw a left

Bowe had some technical skill but the only technical thing he stands out for is his infighting ability for a big man everything else Lewis surpasses him.
A "porous" defense is completely devoid of any defense or the willingness to be defensive. You are exaggerating the point.

Infighting is probably the most difficult skill of all -show me a HW with Bowe's infighting skill and I'll show you a HW who has greater skills than the norm. The fact that Bowe, at his height, bothered to learn it and learn it so well is impressive by itself.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Much has been made about Bowe's difficulty with a jab and his allegedly porous defense. Name 3 HWs who did not have windows of opportunity due to their imperfect technique. You are ignoring everything else.

Lewis's ability to throw any punch in the book is one aspect of a skill set. He was among the most formidable offensive machines I ever saw.

Watching Bowe apply his trade against a prime Holyfield and comparing it to any number of Lewis's bouts reveal plainly that Bowe could counter, was excellent inside, could angle, slip, weave, parry, and had a versatile command of boxing skill. I was shocked at the level of his skill. Lewis was simply less impressive in terms of skill -not offensive domination that is really due to his physical assets. Lewis throws long shots from outside, clinches, leans, leans back, and jumps backwards. Some of his shots were anything but textbook shots. I see far less rythym, never mind a more limited skill set.

It worked very well for him because he utilitzed his size and reach, but there were developmental holes. I saw them, and frankly I'm surprised that my European counterparts have not.

Futch taught Bowe well. Bowe was lazy and arrogant and made a big mistake in staying with Rockhead Newman. Bowe did not reach his potential and his legacy has suffered. While Lewis enjoys and deserves his place in boxing as a successful and respected HBO commentator, Bowe laments, is riddled with regret, but deserves what he got no less. But let's not argue that he was a technical dunce. Because he was not.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

By the way, i won't call Bowe a techinical dunce; outside of Lewis and Klitschko (you'll disagree here; Bowe has a big edge in in-fighting skill but Wlad jabs better and uses his size) he is the most skilled big men in history, and i'd rate him somewhere top12 if we're talking about pure head to head ability. I'm not sure if he beats Liston, tough fight to call. I'm on the sideline for this one. What about you?
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Old 07-09-2008, 05:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

I do think wladimir Klitschko is in the top 3 most talented big men in history. He reminded me of joe louis in the 1990s when he was a two fisted assassin. unfortunetly traits such as poor chin lack of stamina and mental panic attacks were exposed. these are traits that cannot be taught, so its doubtful if he can improve them(perhaps his stamina). I do not think vitali klitschko possesses anywhere near the talent of his brother. I do think riddick bowe was more talented than wlad and lennox, but in a h2h fight i can see lennox beating bowe(bowe would kill me for saying that). but who knows, bowe was a much improved fighter since 1988.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: Riddick Bowe beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

By the way, i won't call Bowe a techinical dunce; outside of Lewis and Klitschko (you'll disagree here; Bowe has a big edge in in-fighting skill but Wlad jabs better and uses his size) he is the most skilled big men in history, and i'd rate him somewhere top12 if we're talking about pure head to head ability. I'm not sure if he beats Liston, tough fight to call. I'm on the sideline for this one. What about you?
You're slightly more fair about Bowe than I thought!

I think that we have very different conceptions of what skill is though. Very different. Lewis's last fight showed horrendous skill against Vitali, who was really no better. Vitali seemed to be arguing that boxing has not advanced one week since Jim Corbett! They fought like rank amateurs and had Lewis been as skilled as this forum believes, he would have improved with age in that department -not devolved, which is what he did. Frankly, Lewis looked at his technical best against Mercer, even though his strategy was questionable.

I am thinking that our different outlooks on what skill is may be a matter of continent. You may have to educate me here, but it seems that Europeans place high premiums on safety- first and equate that with skill. I don't give much credit to large men who simply jab and jump away when the other man shows aggression. And Wlad's jab against Sultan was tragically bad. Sultan's performance was tragically bad. The fight was an embarassment -especially to purists. Juan Manuel Marquez is highly skilled. Klitschko is, by his own admission, "still learning". I believe that Steward is still teaching him fundamentals.

...PS/ I'd favor Liston over Bowe, but only because of Bowe's penchant for negating his own size and reach and affinity for brawling.
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