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Old 07-08-2008, 12:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by janitor
The only way Wlad would beat Liston is with a stick while he slept.


In reality Wlad has some of the fundamental tools required to have a go at getting the job done, but against Liston that job is going to be one he wouldn't bridge. The earlier version would trade and ultimately get starched, whilst the more defensively solid recent version would fare OK on the crorecards, up until the later rounds: when Liston would ultimately catch up to him, and close the show. The chin issue in both cases is why

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Liston would KO both Wlad and Vitali probably in the same night, 5 rounds apiece with the right training and corner. There is no way either Klitschko would have stood up to a prime Liston. Forget the Ali fights and say whatever you want about the mob being in control of Liston's career at that time. Pound for pound, people forget that the Klitschko's are tall, lanky fighters almost built like basketball players. Sure, they are both very athletic and physically gifted fighters but I fail to see how either brother can be compared to Liston, Foreman and Shavers in terms of pure power.
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab


In reality Wlad has some of the fundamental tools required to have a go at getting the job done, but against Liston that job is going to be one he wouldn't bridge. The earlier version would trade and ultimately get starched, whilst the more defensively solid recent version would fare OK on the crorecards, up until the later rounds: when Liston would ultimately catch up to him, and close the show. The chin issue in both cases is why

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.
Liston in many ways is the superheavyweights ultimate nightmare.

He has the reach in terms of artilery to engage them at long range while he is substantialy shorter, alowing him to duck under their punches, while they are unable to do the same with his. In naval terms he is what we would call a monitor. A small ship with the guns of a much bigger ship that has a verry low profile and is hard to hit.


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I dont just think he would beat Wlad I think he could verry likley beat Lewis as well.
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Lewis vs Liston is a toss up. I just can't decide, maybe slight edge to Lewis actually, but a decision verdict is the most likely outcome and wouldn't surprise me whichever way it went. Either could knock the other out too: whilst Liston has the stronger chin, Lewis is the bigger and more athletic man. Liston was the most adaptable boxer-slugger in HW history, whilst Lewis was equally adept from the outside or inside too.

Lewis would need to jab and move whislt setting up for the big overhand right, and aim to stay away from Listons firing line, he doesn't want to be near the ropes. He need to maintain a high workrate to pull the win off: but he's realistically got as good a chance as more or less any fighter would have against Liston
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Liston doesn't even stand a chance does he even compare to like of Sanders, Brewster or the all time great Puritty I don't think so. Nobody can beat Wlad not even a master boxer like Peter could do it despite displaying subtleties that haven't been seen since the great Willie Pep.
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Old 07-08-2008, 03:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
Lewis vs Liston is a toss up. I just can't decide, maybe slight edge to Lewis actually, but a decision verdict is the most likely outcome and wouldn't surprise me whichever way it went. Either could knock the other out too: whilst Liston has the stronger chin, Lewis is the bigger and more athletic man. Liston was the most adaptable boxer-slugger in HW history, whilst Lewis was equally adept from the outside or inside too.

Lewis would need to jab and move whislt setting up for the big overhand right, and aim to stay away from Listons firing line, he doesn't want to be near the ropes. He need to maintain a high workrate to pull the win off: but he's realistically got as good a chance as more or less any fighter would have against Liston
I would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston. Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds; Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston. Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power, more fluid combinations, never showed a stylistic problem nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him. Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Liston.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab

I cannot realisically think of one valid aspect of the game in which Wlad fares better at, both in terms of fundamentals and offensive weaponary.
I suggest you watch some Klitschko fights and Liston's after/before that. Wlad's hands are much faster, he is at least as powerful, much bigger and takes away any inside game an opponent has. He is also faster on his feet and more athletic. Of course, his chin is much weaker, although he had the disadvantage of fighting much bigger opponents than most of Liston's cruiserweights as well as fighting in an era with more emphasis on strength and power.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:11 PM   #23
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I suggest you watch some Klitschko fights and Liston's after/before that. Wlad's hands are much faster,
People make the observation that Listons hands were not the fastest and they wernt. This is his main weakness.

Unfortunately for Wlad this is his only technical weakness.

Liston had prety much everything. Ring generalship, fighting instinct, ability to read an oponents intentions, infighting ability, outfighting ability, everything between, ofense, defense.

Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by janitor
Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.
Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

OK then I've looked back over some respective clips of both. Wlad's maybe got a minor edge in handspeed, fair enough then. Bigger man, yes but Liston's insane reach will nullify that. Plus Liston hardly passive on the inside, he's easily as strong from a physical perspective. He's going to get there at some stage and wreak absolute havok.

No version of Wlad is in the same bracket as the likes of a Lewis. I think Bowe was a better fighter than him too.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.
If Sonny Liston had fast hands then he would have been like a more instinctive version of Joe Louis with an 84" reach but he didnt.

Even if Wlad had an iron chin there would still be some major gaps in his makeup which would prevent me from picking him over Liston or Lewis for that matter. I dont think his infighting ability would be enough for Liston to be honest.

Personaly I think that Big Cat Williams would have an excelent chance of picking up part of the title today and I wish that Wlad was fighting him this weekend instead of Tony Tomphson.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
People make the observation that Listons hands were not the fastest and they wernt. This is his main weakness.

Unfortunately for Wlad this is his only technical weakness.

Liston had prety much everything. Ring generalship, fighting instinct, ability to read an oponents intentions, infighting ability, outfighting ability, everything between, ofense, defense.

Wlad is going to need more than a jab and a good hug here.
Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

nice call janitor: Williams was a damn fine fighter indeed around the time he faced Liston. Sadly he's remember by some morseo for his one-sided, quickfire loss against Ali by which time he was spent.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Sakura
Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.
If sombody has a heavy punch his chances against Wlad are significantly better than zero.
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I dont think his infighting ability would be enough for Liston to be honest.
How much of his fights have you seen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' jab
OK then I've looked back over some respective clips of both. Wlad's maybe got a minor edge in handspeed, fair enough then. Bigger man, yes but Liston's insane reach will nullify that. Plus Liston hardly passive on the inside, he's easily as strong from a physical perspective. He's going to get there at some stage and wreak absolute havok.

No version of Wlad is in the same bracket as the likes of a Lewis. I think Bowe was a better fighter than him too.

I would say it's more than just a minor edge.

Although i think YouTube isn't really appropriate because you miss things in the low quality, take a gander at this:

BORKED


BORKED




This to me is more than just a minor speed advantage. Very impressive considering he's 6'6 240-250lbs to Liston's 6'0 204-214lbs.
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