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Old 07-08-2008, 06:29 PM   #61
Polymath
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura
Very careful prediction. Haye has best chance to do it....someone else, no..

Lewis Ko'ed 2 times in 44 fights and wlad have already 53 fights and in probality he will lost very soon...
Yes, I like Haye and will follow him closely. However, without having had a meaningful fight as a heavyweight, predicting his victory of the current consensus Champ would be premature.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by janitor
What do we mean by size?

Wlad is taller but this advantages can be a bit of a mixed blessing against an oponent with longer arms.

If Wlad throws a punch, Liston will be able to duck under while Wlad will only be able to pull backwards.
It wouldnt be so easy, atleast with new wlad...he would be like lewis leaning backwards...
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:33 PM   #63
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by janitor

Otherwise why did Lewis and Bowe bother to learn infighting if they could neutralise anything an oponent could throw at them just by holding?
Because their fighting hearts were bigger than their brains. Especially in Bowe's case.

Lewis made a very close fight with Mercer because he didn't mind trading on the inside. Mercer did better than expected with the jab, which is why it's being mentioned often, but most of his best work was on the inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Even if we put the infighting argument to one side, dose Liston even need to fight on the inside?

He has 4" of reach on Wlad which is a fair amount even though he will be working uphill.
Yes, and for the following reasons:
-Wlad has better footspeed than Liston.
-Wlad has better handspeed than Liston.
-Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston. Liston may have a longer wingspan, but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off. Ali has a measured reach anywhere from 79 to 82, yet he totally dominated Liston's 84. Williams is measured at 80", but his arms look at least as long if not longer than Liston's on film. You could call the timing factor even, but Klitschko holds an edge in speed and a huge edge in height here.
-Wlad knows how to use his size to stay on the outside better than almost anyone in history.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Here I have to differ.

Klitschko is no coward but he is a little gunshy and Liston certainly has the cooler head under fire. If it must be a war then Liston will aclimatize better.
Liston is more relaxed for sure. But given the blatant way Liston gave up after cheating didn't work i cannot see how you can give Liston an edge in heart. Inexplicable actually. Wlad has always gotten up and gone on no matter the odds. When things get rough on Liston, there's no telling what he'll do, as we saw.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:35 PM   #64
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Polymath
Yes, I like Haye and will follow him closely. However, without having had a meaningful fight as a heavyweight, predicting his victory of the current consensus Champ would be premature.
Better choise than Peter..wlad learn quickly....Peter has no chance anymore.

Haye get almost Ko'ed by Mock who is no hard puncher. But still because Hayes punching power and speed i give him better chance than Peter...
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:42 PM   #65
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChristPontius
Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston. Liston may have a longer wingspan, but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off.
I've boxed all my life. While I doubt its even possible to box at any serious level in the Nederlands. So there's the 'anyone who's boxed' crap dealt with.


Reach is relatively more important than height, imo
Liston also had better timing obviously.
Klitshcko has quicker hands.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:44 PM   #66
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Polymath
I've boxed all my life. While I doubt its even possible to box at any serious level in the Nederlands. So there's the 'anyone who's boxed' crap dealt with.


Reach is relatively more important than height, imo
Liston also had better timing obviously.
Klitshcko has quicker hands.
Belive me, your choice Peter will get grushed next time.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Klitschko is completely stiff at the waist as well, absolutely zero upper body movement, never slipped punch in his life. these sort of subtleties (well, subtle to young guys who think a 6'6" guy with bulging biceps is invincible) make all the difference in fighting from range. Lets not forget Klitschko's chin, which makes him extremely tentative and fearful against even someone as inept as Sultan Igbragimov.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:46 PM   #68
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Sakura
Belive me, your choice Peter will get grushed next time.
?

I pick Klitshcko to beat Peter on points...
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:51 PM   #69
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Polymath
Klitschko is completely stiff at the waist as well, absolutely zero upper body movement, never slipped punch in his life. these sort of subtleties (well, subtle to young guys who think a 6'6" guy with bulging biceps is invincible) make all the difference in fighting from range. Lets not forget Klitschko's chin, which makes him extremely tentative and fearful against even someone as inept as Sultan Igbragimov.
Firstly, Sultan Igbragimov give very hard fight to Savon in amateur ring. His skilled fighter, but he was totally without gun's against wladimir. Klitchkos chin is average not better or worst.

Ps.Emanuel Stewart was very weak boxer, but good trainer. His boxing eyes is good.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:51 PM   #70
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Polymath
?

I pick Klitshcko to beat Peter on points...
No, peter will be ko'ed...
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:52 PM   #71
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Because their fighting hearts were bigger than their brains. Especially in Bowe's case.
I cant agree here.

Bowe beat the smaller Holyfield by fighting with him on the inside and Holyfield won the rematch by boxing with him.

Infighting is part of a system and if you take away any part of that system you create a weakness regardless of the fighters style.

Quote:
Lewis made a very close fight with Mercer because he didn't mind trading on the inside. Mercer did better than expected with the jab, which is why it's being mentioned often, but most of his best work was on the inside.
I dont think that Lewis would have done better if he had lacked infighting ability and had relied mainly on holding to neutralize Mercer on the inside.

I think he needed every tool he had in that fight.

Quote:
Yes, and for the following reasons:
-Wlad has better footspeed than Liston.
Errrrm.

OK.

Liston is going to be cutting down the ring on him though.

Quote:
-Wlad has better handspeed than Liston.
Granted

Quote:
-Wlad has a long actual punching reach than Liston.
Hard to prove in practice.

Quote:
but anyone who has boxed knows that height, speed and timing are much more important in terms of getting punches from the outside off. Ali has a measured reach anywhere from 79 to 82, yet he totally dominated Liston's 84.
I dont think that Ali showed any edge in range in this fight.

Handspeed and mobility were obviously the keys .

Quote:
Williams is measured at 80", but his arms look at least as long if not longer than Liston's on film.
But he proved to be at the physical disadvantage because Liston could reach him but was still short enough to duck under.

Quote:
You could call the timing factor even,
Not really.

Liston has it by a country mile.

Liston was a master at reading an opponent.

While Wlad waits for an oponent to do something and then reacts to it, Liston predicted what his opponent would do next and often had the punche loaded and aimed before they moved into position.



Quote:
Liston is more relaxed for sure. But given the blatant way Liston gave up after cheating didn't work i cannot see how you can give Liston an edge in heart. Inexplicable actually. Wlad has always gotten up and gone on no matter the odds. When things get rough on Liston, there's no telling what he'll do, as we saw.
I think that Listons calmness under fire is likely to be more important to the outcome of this fight than Wlads presumed unwillingness to quit.

Also it is only fair to observe that Liston did finish fights with some bad injuries earlier in his career. Winning the title can sap a fighters desire.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:20 PM   #72
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston. Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds; Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston. Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power, more fluid combinations, never showed a stylistic problem nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him. Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Liston.

Quote:
would pick Lewis rather comfortably over Liston

disagree


Quote:
Most of Sonny's victims barely scaled 200 pounds

same with joe louis victims



Quote:
Lewis made a career out of beating much bigger guys than Liston.

bigger but much less skilled and powerful than liston. liston had 15" fists and 84" reach, superheavyweight dimensions. he could easily carry extra weight.

Ray mercer was same height as liston, similiar style, he was 36 and he fought lennox dead even fight. outjabbed and outphyiscaled lennox. I think this fight shows u liston would defintley take lennox.



Quote:
Lewis has faster hands, at least as much power,

lewis did not pocess as much power. lennox never floored a rated durable opponent. liston annihalated a rated granite chin fighter in 58 seconds. lennox could defintley hit but i rate his power slightly below listons and foremans.



Quote:
more fluid combinations

liston had the much better body attack, and his uppercut repoirtre was far better. liston was a much better infighter than lennox too.




Quote:
never showed a stylistic problem

is this a joke? lennox struggled with frank bruno, ray mercer, holyfield rematch, vitali klitschko, hasim rahman, oliver mcall, all exposed lennox in these fights.

listons top opposition patterson valdez williams folley machen were all clearly cleanly beaten.

liston in his prime never showed a stylistic problem. he dominated his top opposition with ease. you could mention clay, but no one in history had leg speed and movement like clay, certainly not lennox.


Quote:
nor quit on his stool after cheating didn't work for him

liston was never twice knocked out by one punch near his prime by non world beaters.


Quote:
Lewis is more adaptable, faster on foot despite being 40 pounds heavier and would dwarf Lis

liston is the more scientific boxer, much better jab, and more accurate with his punches, and he equaled lennox in reach.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 07-08-2008 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:23 PM   #73
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ron u.k.
so this is the same wlad with all the so called physical advantages,who was ultra cautious and refused to engage the 219 pound ibragimov.what would he be like with the brooding,menacing figure of liston in front of him.i believe liston would knock him out inside eight rounds.


Liston is a monster and Wlad isn't fast enough to avoid Sonny like Ali.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:26 PM   #74
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Sakura
Anyone can say what they want, but if someone has problem with his hand speed, his chances against wlad is zero. Wlads owns exellent reflex.
Yeah Ross Purrity and Lamon Brewster had lightning fast hands
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:28 PM   #75
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko beats Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Yep, what he needs is a chin. If he had that, i'd pick him over Liston with my eyes closed.

add to that mental toughness, stamina, inside fighting skills, jab and perhaps well talk. thing is wlad doesnt have it. liston is pretty much better in all areas than wlad outside of handspeed.



you call urself a fighter and u think wlad looks better on film than liston?
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