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Old 07-08-2008, 12:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Short but sweet - GREAT points. Even just going back to the 80's there were myriads less champs and more meaningful fights were made.
Sorry for putting up negatives. Boxing is still great...
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

I'm struggling to think of an improvement actually,how about we can watch it in colour? Walk in any bar/pub and ask anyone to name 3 world Champions .In fact ask them to name the Heavyweight Champion.BOXING IS DYING!Too many alphabet greeedy parasites,too many psuedo Champs,too many unworthy challengers,the game is lost.Half of todays fighters are comparative novices ,including the Champions,the main criteria is an undefeated record,so they get matched with guys that make the result a foregone conclusion.Its show business with blood .How many great champs are there ,and nhow many really worthy challengers to them?TRhe lack of depth makes it viable for old stars an Champs like Hopkins to still be dominant.they have little top beat .TV Built up Boxing ,but in the long run it killed it ,the small clubs where fighters could learn their trade without being rushed ,all shut down they couldnt compete with TV,its a cynical game now just motivated by ratings ,and when it implodes the bloodsuckers will move on to something else as they are doing allrready with MMA.Improved? Where?
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Old 07-08-2008, 12:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by mcvey
I'm struggling to think of an improvement actually,how about we can watch it in colour? Walk in any bar/pub and ask anyone to name 3 world Champions .In fact ask them to name the Heavyweight Champion.BOXING IS DYING!Too many alphabet greeedy parasites,too many psuedo Champs,too many unworthy challengers,the game is lost.Half of todays fighters are comparative novices ,including the Champions,the main criteria is an undefeated record,so they get matched with guys that make the result a foregone conclusion.Its show business with blood .How many great champs are there ,and nhow many really worthy challengers to them?TRhe lack of depth makes it viable for old stars an Champs like Hopkins to still be dominant.they have little top beat .TV Built up Boxing ,but in the long run it killed it ,the small clubs where fighters could learn their trade without being rushed ,all shut down they couldnt compete with TV,its a cynical game now just motivated by ratings ,and when it implodes the bloodsuckers will move on to something else as they are doing allrready with MMA.Improved? Where?


No disprespect McVey, but this is pish.

Most money ever at the box office? Last year. Richest fight in history? Last year. Best trilogy in the history of boxing? Completed last year.

Alive and well.
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
No disprespect McVey, but this is pish.

Most money ever at the box office? Last year. Richest fight in history? Last year. Best trilogy in the history of boxing? Completed last year.

Alive and well.
Small clubs shutting all over the UK.how many are opening in the States?
You are talking about one -offs not the state of the game in general.The best trilogy of boxing in subjective ,it could be Zale /Graziano,Ali/Frazier,Barrera /Morales/Gatti/Ward.Its personal choice. of course fights are richer now thats inflation,how much would the Dempsey/Carpentier fight be worth in todays money,and thats87 yearsago.Jack Johnson received ,$60,600 ,plus a bonus of $ 10,000,plus $50,ooo for his share of the picture rights when he beat Jeffries,what is that worth in todays market?That was 98 years ago.Box office returns are not bums on seats ,Boxing is marketed as entertainment now ,fireworks and glitz,the ring walk often takes as long as the fight ,there seems to be as many people inside the ring as out side the ropes,if you think boxing is so popular do as I suggest ,go into any bar and ask any body who the heavyweight champ is .
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Old 07-08-2008, 01:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

Those figures are adjusted for inflation.

My point about the great trilogy is indeed subjective, but McVey, let me ask you, did you even see all three parts of Marquez-Vasquez?
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

No I didnt ,but I never saw the first two Zale/ Graziano fights either.Three fights dont prove the popularity of boxing,how many of your friends could even name one of the guys you mentioned? Take out the few big stars like ODH,and PBF,what have you got? Why is the heavyweight division dominated by Eastern Eurpopeans ? Most of whom are ****.why arent big American kids taking up the sport?Roy Jones ,one of the greatest talents of recent years relied on his opponents to draw he was not a box office winner,like -wise Hopkins,"as heavyweights go so goes boxing" is an old adage ,well as the recent Wlad defence showed it goes pretty poorly.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
*Boxing has gone truly global. Noteable exceptions are China and India, but aside from those two potentially rich boxing countires, it's pretty much all over the globe.
Yes, and especially in the lower weight classes. A plethora of Latino and even Asian fighters, (Paquaio for eg., is a little of both), has upped the competition level below Middleweight.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by mcvey
No I didnt
We've talked before. I think you know that I quite like you as much as that is possible in internet world - but this basically tells me the argument has nothing to do with you. These are three of the best fights since i've been born and they describe everything that is great about modern boxing, and there's plenty.

If you can't even be bothered to see such amazing battles, happening at the weekend, on tv, online, then you should probably avoid making sweeping statements about modern boxing. That is my point. Absolutley nothing wrong with being primarily interested in old school boxing (As you know i'm very interested myself, probably more than in modern fighting), but it lifts my paint when people who aren't even watching the great fights start taking a pop at the game.

Quote:
.Three fights dont prove the popularity of boxing,how many of your friends could even name one of the guys you mentioned? Take out the few big stars like ODH,and PBF,what have you got? Why is the heavyweight division dominated by Eastern Eurpopeans ? Most of whom are ****.why arent big American kids taking up the sport?Roy Jones ,one of the greatest talents of recent years relied on his opponents to draw he was not a box office winner,like -wise Hopkins,"as heavyweights go so goes boxing" is an old adage ,well as the recent Wlad defence showed it goes pretty poorly.

Some of this is fair, OK, not everyone I know knows who these boys are, or who the heavyweight champ is, but so what? The fights are available to those who want them. They make more money than EVER before. They put on fights that are in some case BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE.

The fighters make more money than EVER BEFORE.

The fights are seen by a lot of people.

Calzaghe and Hatton both sell out football stadiums for Christsake. It may not be as mainstream as in past years but dying?

Give me a break.
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
We've talked before. I think you know that I quite like you as much as that is possible in internet world - but this basically tells me the argument has nothing to do with you. These are three of the best fights since i've been born and they describe everything that is great about modern boxing, and there's plenty.

If you can't even be bothered to see such amazing battles, happening at the weekend, on tv, online, then you should probably avoid making sweeping statements about modern boxing. That is my point. Absolutley nothing wrong with being primarily interested in old school boxing (As you know i'm very interested myself, probably more than in modern fighting), but it lifts my paint when people who aren't even watching the great fights start taking a pop at the game.




Some of this is fair, OK, not everyone I know knows who these boys are, or who the heavyweight champ is, but so what? The fights are available to those who want them. They make more money than EVER before. They put on fights that are in some case BETTER THAN EVER BEFORE.

The fighters make more money than EVER BEFORE.

The fights are seen by a lot of people.

Calzaghe and Hatton both sell out football stadiums for Christsake. It may not be as mainstream as in past years but dying?

Give me a break.
M ,you go back to what 1974 or so ? How do you compare times you were not even part of? Joe Louis was Champ when I was born pick up a Ring magazine and count the world class fighters in the ratings ,not those that are ranked ,those that are truly world class.How many Uk fighters could sell out a hall let alone a stadium? you have 40 plus year olds like Skelton still plying their trade and going the distance with so called "world champs",for every David Haye , Amir Khan ,there are a hundred earning two bob.I used to go to Manor Place Baths,Shoreditch,Wembley Pool,Wembley Stadium.Wembley Conference Centre, the RAH,how many of them hold regular boxing shows?
When was the last time MSG in New York put on a show ,the Felt Forum,the Astrodome,? If boxing is thriving ,how come so mmany old veterans like Toney,Rahman,Ruiz,Holyfield,Golota, are still active.When a good boxer like Winky Wright is talked of in terms of greatness I say there is a dearth of competiton ,there is no depth in the divisions,examine the defences Hopkins made a record breaker sure ,but against who?Would he have run those figures up in the 60s ,the 50s or even the 40s with half the men in uniform? I dont think so.Because I didnt see all the trilogy you mention I'm dsqd from this debate ok fine.Set your dvd player up and watch a so called ATG inTrinidad walk into Wrights left jab all night, zero head movement and no idea how to slip a jab,and he was a dominant Champion of his time.Half the guys today lack the basic fundamentals,entertaining ?Sure. Exciting? You bet solid ,well schooled pros? NO! That is why old school fighters like Hopkins and Toney still have a career,they have **** all to beat.I'm gone ,sorry your paint has lifted,go over it after Ive left.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
I'm not talking about the science of fighting, but boxing as a sport.

We often bemoan the state of affairs today, but surely some things have changed for the better?

What about:

*No mob involvement. Less fixed fights, less bogus ratings and less 'hired' fighters.

*Worthy contenders are not ducked as much and champions are forced to fight mandatories or are stripped of the title.

*Boxing has gone truly global. Noteable exceptions are China and India, but aside from those two potentially rich boxing countires, it's pretty much all over the globe.

Anything else?
The Alphabet Rankings are corrupt. You can tell by looking at them.

For the mandatories, many mandatories are far from the best fighters in the division.

Boxing has gone global but less people do it as a whole. I'd say at least 95 percent of people couldn't name a current heavyweight champion.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

i think the increased medical resources and concern to boxers inside the ring and after hard fights are very appreciated

pre and post catscans, post doctor check ups, surgury for damage retinas and month before weight checks are all great

i also like the kd rule for a boxer using the ropes to prevent a fall.

duct tape and attached thumbs for added safety is also great ideas.

boxrec!!!!
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

Less fixed fights? Actually, in the conventional sense of fixed fights, both professional and anecdotal evidence tends to show that for most of the last 80 years fixed fights have been very rare. There have been bad patches in various divisions at particular times, but almost always fixing fights has not been a popular or indeed profitable enterprise.

The form of match fixing that was and sadly is still very popular is matching boxers of extremely differing abilities together and then spinning it into a legitimate fight. This is especially common when you have the likes of Don Steele, Damon Reed, Lamar Clark, Jean-Pierre Coopman and other such boxers with varying degrees of inflated records. This (a) deprives fans of entertainment; (b) creates a visage of legitimacy to a squash match; and (c) can confuse the casual betting public.

I'd say by far the best improvements have been in safety, both in and out of the ring. Better doctors are at hand, brain scans are common, medical tests are more rigorous, boxers make more per fight and thus don't have to box so often etc. Also, TV has been a great improvement, because in many cases we have every or almost every fight of a boxer, which would have been totally unfeasible in the 1920s. Modern film can now be digitised instanteneously and thus potentially stored for thousands of years to come.

Boxers are much, much less likely to die in surgury these days, which was the tragic fate of Harry Greb.

It's much easier for boxers to travel, even relative to 40 years ago. Don ****ell had to take a BOAT to get the USA and then fight in the California heat for the first time. That's a lot of effort to get fouled by Marciano!
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:54 AM   #28
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
M ,you go back to what 1974 or so ? How do you compare times you were not even part of? Joe Louis was Champ when I was born pick up a Ring magazine and count the world class fighters in the ratings ,not those that are ranked ,those that are truly world class.How many Uk fighters could sell out a hall let alone a stadium? you have 40 plus year olds like Skelton still plying their trade and going the distance with so called "world champs",for every David Haye , Amir Khan ,there are a hundred earning two bob.I used to go to Manor Place Baths,Shoreditch,Wembley Pool,Wembley Stadium.Wembley Conference Centre, the RAH,how many of them hold regular boxing shows?
When was the last time MSG in New York put on a show ,the Felt Forum,the Astrodome,? If boxing is thriving ,how come so mmany old veterans like Toney,Rahman,Ruiz,Holyfield,Golota, are still active.When a good boxer like Winky Wright is talked of in terms of greatness I say there is a dearth of competiton ,there is no depth in the divisions,examine the defences Hopkins made a record breaker sure ,but against who?Would he have run those figures up in the 60s ,the 50s or even the 40s with half the men in uniform? I dont think so.Because I didnt see all the trilogy you mention I'm dsqd from this debate ok fine.Set your dvd player up and watch a so called ATG inTrinidad walk into Wrights left jab all night, zero head movement and no idea how to slip a jab,and he was a dominant Champion of his time.Half the guys today lack the basic fundamentals,entertaining ?Sure. Exciting? You bet solid ,well schooled pros? NO! That is why old school fighters like Hopkins and Toney still have a career,they have **** all to beat.I'm gone ,sorry your paint has lifted,go over it after Ive left.
Why do you think boxing is dying Mcvey? Where did it all go wrong?

Your points are valid; I cannot dispute that. On the other hand, surely boxing in eastern european countries is on the rise? More and more fighters from those regions are becoming successful pros. Perhaps in 30, 40 years boxing's mecca will be in the Ukraine or some such place.

I think you're being quite harsh on some of the modern guys as well. Let's be honest, as great as many of the old-timers were, there were also a lot of bums those days, same as now. Sometimes reviewing old fight films is very enlightening, in that you realise a lot of old boxing legends were blown out of all proportion by writers of the time or even some modern day writers.
Anyways, I don't want to get embroiled in an old v new debate and I do think a lot of your observations are valid. At the same time though, I don't think boxing's demise is imminent or anything.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:00 AM   #29
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by Wealthy Elite
Color television.
Good point.

What's rather odd is that although half the world knew who Joe Louis was, many folks (particularly the poor blacks he was so popular with) had never seen him fight.
In fact, even until the day he fought and lost to Marciano there were many who had never actually seen a Joe Louis fight.

TV and even the internet with youtube and the like offer everyone (or at least the vast majority) the chance of watching current fighters.
Also instead of trekking to the theatre to go watch it, one can just buy it on PPV and watch it in your living room.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: How has boxing improved over the last 80 years or so?

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan

I'd say by far the best improvements have been in safety, both in and out of the ring. Better doctors are at hand, brain scans are common, medical tests are more rigorous, boxers make more per fight and thus don't have to box so often etc.
The safety of boxing has definitely improved, or at least the awareness of safety has. Although I'm a bit old-school in that I think many modern fights are stopped too quickly, in my heart I know stopping a fight too soon is better than stopping it too late.
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