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Old 07-08-2008, 06:32 PM   #1
mr. magoo
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Default Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Yesterday, I posted an overly abundant number of threads containing " this person beats Liston ".

Please understand that most of this was just in joking nature, and in fact I do not really believe that all of those fighters would beat the great Sonny Liston.

Why did I do it?

Frankly, I think that Liston as great as he was, is often built up into an invincible force, and history has proven that he clearly wasn't.

Do I believe that at least SOME of the fighters I listed COULD POSSIBLY have beaten him? My answer is maybe.

Lennox Lewis is a fighter who I truly believe could have beaten Sonny Liston, but no guarantees.

Larry Holmes is a fighter who I firmly believe could have beaten Liston.

Wladimir Klitschko is not a fighter that I'd pick to beat Liston, but an upset is possible here.

Vitali Klitschko's durability, size and power could have given Liston trouble, especially considering that Liston enjoyed the advantage of feasting on smaller, weaker, less durable prey. Again, no guarantees.

Mike Tyson had the power, handspeed and agressiveness to beat Liston, but the styles could be wrong here. Nevertheless, it would be a great match-up.

Carl Williams- I certainly hope that no one took me serious here.

George Foreman- A very good matchup, but who knows? Foreman certainly had the power and aggressiveness to beat Liston, but my one hesitation is that as a prospect, he took countless poundings from Sonny in sparring. Some of these sessions may have come back to haunt him in an actual match, not to mention, Sonny knew him like none other. Tough fight for George.

Joe Louis - I have a hard time picking Louis to lose against any all time great, given my vast respect for him, but this would be a dangerous test for him. I will say however, that Louis's incredible heart, power, great conditioning, combination punching, and tendency to show little fear of anyone would make him equally treacherous for Liston....

Forgive my bad taste in humor, as at times, I like to rile up the forum a bit...


-Magoo-
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Frankly, I think that Liston as great as he was, is often built up into an invincible force
What, unlike the 6'6" Wladimir Klitschko?



He's 6'6" you know?
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

magoo, where are getting this btw? The overall impression I get is that you all think Liston is a bum who'd lose to anybody taller than himself.

There are several highly active goons in the classic forum who constantly slag Liston off at every opportunity. I dont know how you could detect at atmosphere of Liston hugging when the opposite seems to be the reality. Look at the Klitschko beat Liston 'joke' thread of yours; these kids seriously believe it.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymath
magoo, where are getting this btw? The overall impression I get is that you all think Liston is a bum who'd lose to anybody taller than himself.

There are several highly active goons in the classic forum who constantly slag Liston off at every opportunity. I dont know how you could detect at atmosphere of Liston hugging when the opposite seems to be the reality. Look at the Klitschko beat Liston 'joke' thread of yours; these kids seriously believe it.
Please don't turn this into a Magoo bashing session. Your points are well taken, and I agree with many of them. Liston is highly respected in the classic forum. I know this for a fact, as I frequent this chat room. In fact, you probably remember the time when a klit vs Liston thread was started in the general forum, and I had it out with such geniuses as Widow maker and Dr. Phil. I pulled for Sonny all the way.

My position on the issue should not be too highly in question, especially from yourself who knows me a tad better than that.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Please don't turn this into a Magoo bashing session. Your points are well taken, and I agree with many of them. Liston is highly respected in the classic forum. I know this for a fact, as I frequent this chat room. In fact, you probably remember the time when a klit vs Liston thread was started in the general forum, and I had it out with such geniuses as Widow maker and Dr. Phil. I pulled for Sonny all the way.

My position on the issue should not be too highly in question, especially from yourself who knows me a tad better than that.
thats true for the majority of knowledgable posters.

However the overwhelming actual # of Liston related posts seem to be about him being dogcrap, a quitter, bully of middleweights etc.

Of course, i have no empirical evidence for this and its highly likely I'm wrong

Perhaps its just that Chris Pontius, and the poster with Lisbon as his location (Seamus, is it?) seem to post every time Liston is brought up, and its usually something negative, or about how Klitschko would whup him because he's 6'6", and I suppose thats why I leave with that impression.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
a klit vs Liston thread was started in the general forum, and I had it out with such geniuses as Widow maker and Dr. Phil. I pulled for Sonny all the way.
I remember it well.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymath
thats true for the majority of knowledgable posters.

However the overwhelming actual # of Liston related posts seem to be about him being dogcrap, a quitter, bully of middleweights etc.

Of course, i have no empirical evidence for this and its highly likely I'm wrong

Perhaps its just that Chris Pontius, and the poster with Lisbon as his location (Seamus, is it?) seem to post every time Liston is brought up, and its usually something negative, or about how Klitschko would whup him because he's 6'6", and I suppose thats why I leave with that impression.
First of all, I would like to say in his defense, that Chris Pointus is actually a very credible poster who uses facts, stats, and testimonies to back up is claims. He also happens to be a boxer by trade himself. Chris is by no means whatsover a troll or an ignorant poster on the subject of boxing, beit classic or modern. His opinions on Liston may differ from yours, but again its only an opinion. He is sometimes, thwarted to take the opposite side ( as are we all at times ), because certain posters who's names I'm not going to mention, are often unreasonable in their claims about Sonny Liston or other fighters. Just as an example, several months ago, a regular classic poster listed Sonny Liston as his #2 greatest of all time, topped only by Joe Louis. That means that he rated Liston above Muhammad Ali who beat him twice!!!! These are the types of arguments that gets Chris riled up, and frankly I am behind him 100% in such debates......
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
First of all, I would like to say in his defense, that Chris Pointus is actually a very credible poster who uses facts, stats, and testimonies to back up is claims. He also happens to be a boxer by trade himself. Chris is by no means whatsover a troll or an ignorant poster on the subject of boxing, beit classic or modern. His opinions on Liston may differ from yours, but again its only an opinion.
Bollocks. I've experienced his "credible" use of "facts" first hand. He's spent entire (lengthly) threads claiming that Chris Byrd was a bigger man than Sonny Liston, based on the fact that he may at one point in his career weighed a pound more than Liston at one point in HIS career.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymath
Bollocks. I've experienced his "credible" use of "facts" first hand. He's spent entire (lengthly) threads claiming that Chris Byrd was a bigger man than Sonny Liston, based on the fact that he may at one point in his career weighed a pound more than Liston at one point in HIS career.
Context of course would be nice, and in all honesty I have never viewed this thread myself. I have however, viewed countless threads in which Chris P. has provided very reasonable arguments, and was willing to respond appropriately to the opposing side.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:01 PM   #10
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Bollocks. I've experienced his "credible" use of "facts" first hand. He's spent entire (lengthly) threads claiming that Chris Byrd was a bigger man than Sonny Liston, based on the fact that he may at one point in his career weighed a pound more than Liston at one point in HIS career.

I agree, While I really like and respect pontius and his usual intelligence/opinions, on a certain issue(like liston( he almost switches gears and becomes either completley clueless or just plain ignorant on purpose.


As for Magoo calling me out in this thread, I rate liston # 3 heavyweight of all time. Chris and others have been on listons case for alot more than my brief # 2 rating of him. I have heard posters claim tony tubbs would whip sonny liston. Ive heard other comments such as cleveland williams was knocked out by ernie terell, and wayne bethea was never rated in the ring magazine top 10. ive even heard him accuse liston of juicing, plus cheating, and constant degrading of opponents like valdez and folley on purpose. he claims chris bryd is bigger than sonny liston. You yourself seem to believe vitali would somehow beat liston despite vitali having dogshit for a resume, and never having proven himself.

If vitali did not establish himself in one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history, how is he going to establish himself in other eras? vitali was slow uncoordinated, carried his left way to low, threw arm punches, and lacked mental toughness of a champion, and he test positive for steroids

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 07-08-2008 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:06 PM   #11
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Context of course would be nice
What context do you need? its not that context specific is it? Is Chris Byrd a bigger man than Sonny Liston. Easy.

Quote:
and in all honesty I have never viewed this thread myself.
Can't find it now. Its long and has a lot of instances where it was pointed out to him that simply googling these two guys heights and weights obviously does not tell the whole story. The fact that Byrd started as a middleweight before eating like a pig and pumping iron to compete at heavy, and the fact that Liston never touched a weight in his life were lost on him. Ask him, he thinks that. He'll provide you with some 'facts's' to back it up


He also has posted more than once that the chances of Sonny Liston and VITALI Klitschko being steroid users was, on the whole, roughly equal. This is the same Vitali Klitshcko who was booted off the Ukrainian Olympic team in disgrace for juicing, and the same Sonny Liston who competed in an era long before performance enhancers were even well understood, let alone widely used. maybe he'll tell you ancient athletes ate bulls testicles to make themselves stronger, and they were around before Liston, therefore he MAY WELL have been on the juice. I'm trying to make the point that referencing 'facts' does not equate to convincing rhetoric, nor does it denote knowledge of any sort OR preclude one from being a rabid Klitschkonian and Liston-hater
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:09 PM   #12
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I agree the fact he said chris bryd was same size as liston is ridiculous. chris bryd is nothing more than a blownup lightheavyweight/Cruiserweight. Liston not only is a naturally big 210-215lber, he also has physical dimensions of a superheavyweight.


I have a ring magazine article in 2004 interview chris bryd i think may editition(?) where bryd states "I naturally weigh 195lb, i have to eat and bulk my way up over 200lb for fights."
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
He also has posted more than once that the chances of Sonny Liston and VITALI Klitschko being steroid using was, on the whole, roughly equal. This is the same Vitali Klitshcko who was booted off the Ukrainian Olympic team in disgrace for juicing,

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Old 07-08-2008, 08:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: Stirring The Pot, Everyone Please Read

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

As for Magoo calling me out in this thread,
At no point, were you ever called out in this thread. No one specifically said " hey suzie, why don't you come out and defend yourself. "

No names were used here, and in fact this whole discussion between myself and polymath had nothing to do with you. If anybody needs to join the thread, its Chris Pointus, as he is clearly being unduely attacked here.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
=Polymath]What context do you need? its not that context specific is it? Is Chris Byrd a bigger man than Sonny Liston. Easy.

I was illuding to the fact, that I had not seen the thread, and that I would like to have gotten some idea in terms of the context in which the statement was made. It wouln't be the first time, that a poster's words were blown out of propotion. Just ask Widow Maker, on the time that he started a poll using biased propaganda to misrepresent claims that I made.


Quote:
Can't find it now.
Hence my point..

[quote]

Quote:
Its long and has a lot of instances where it was pointed out to him that simply googling these two guys heights and weights obviously does not tell the whole story.
Believe me, and I'm sure you'll agree, that EVERYBODY has been guilty of doing quick, on the fly internet searches using such sources as boxrec and wikipedia to make a point, and over generalized their findings. I've done it, multiple posters have done it, and a third participant in this thread has probably employed its use more than anyone I can think of....What's more, some have even LIED about their findings.


Quote:
The fact that Byrd started as a middleweight before eating like a pig and pumping iron to compete at heavy, and the fact that Liston never touched a weight in his life were lost on him.
While this may be true, it has also been " lost on " many of others, that Byrd also fought in an era of heavyweights who were generally larger. Of course, this does not justify Chris's claim of Byrd being larger than Liston, but it does point out that other posters ignore facts just as avidly.


Quote:
Ask him, he thinks that. He'll provide you with some 'facts's' to back it up

I can not attest to what his response will be to this quote. I can only say, that he has a very good track record of backing up his claims with factual information, and when he's wrong, often retracts his statements, rather than hiding behind empty rhetoric - something that occurs all too often here.

Quote:
He also has posted more than once that the chances of Sonny Liston and VITALI Klitschko being steroid users was, on the whole, roughly equal. This is the same Vitali Klitshcko who was booted off the Ukrainian Olympic team in disgrace for juicing, and the same Sonny Liston who competed in an era long before performance enhancers were even well understood, let alone widely used. maybe he'll tell you ancient athletes ate bulls testicles to make themselves stronger, and they were around before Liston, therefore he MAY WELL have been on the juice. I'm trying to make the point that referencing 'facts' does not equate to convincing rhetoric, nor does it denote knowledge of any sort OR preclude one from being a rabid Klitschkonian and Liston-hater
Some assumptions were probably made here on Chris's part, but he also used words like " probably " or " likely". He did not try and pass his opinion off as gospel.
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