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Old 07-24-2007, 09:34 AM   #31
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab


So low?
He got Benny and Ray mixed up

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Old 07-24-2007, 09:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Walcott
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Jose Napoles
7. Emile Grtiffth
8. Barney Ross
9. Carmen Basilio
10. Thomas Hearns
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:31 AM   #33
Duodenum
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
You're entitled to personal views (as we all are), I was just curious as to what your reasons are. I think it's more than a bit harsh, as I've never seen him so low on any such list.

Place your argument, chum.
(Hmmm...let's see, it's gotta be something really infuriating.)

Randy Shields was the rightful winner of their ten rounder in Baltimore, but SRL got the hometown decision. Tommy Hearns and Kevin Howard had him beat on the scorecards when the referees stopped those matches in favor of Ray. On his ascent to the WW Title, Armando Muniz quit, pleading tendonitis, and Chiaverini simply quit after four rounds, as Duran quit in New Orleans. He originally became the WBC WW Champion only because Benitez didn't take the match seriously, and still, Carlos Padilla decided to award Ray the title on a bogus last second stoppage.

Ray had exactly three successful WW Title defenses: Dave Green (between Benitez and Montreal), Larry Bonds (between New Orleans and Ayub Kalule), and Bruce Finch. (I don't consider the title unification match against Hearns as a championship defense.)

Sincerely,

Satan's advocate
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:07 PM   #34
Drew101
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
(Hmmm...let's see, it's gotta be something really infuriating.)

Randy Shields was the rightful winner of their ten rounder in Baltimore, but SRL got the hometown decision. Tommy Hearns and Kevin Howard had him beat on the scorecards when the referees stopped those matches in favor of Ray. On his ascent to the WW Title, Armando Muniz quit, pleading tendonitis, and Chiaverini simply quit after four rounds, as Duran quit in New Orleans. He originally became the WBC WW Champion only because Benitez didn't take the match seriously, and still, Carlos Padilla decided to award Ray the title on a bogus last second stoppage.

Ray had exactly three successful WW Title defenses: Dave Green (between Benitez and Montreal), Larry Bonds (between New Orleans and Ayub Kalule), and Bruce Finch. (I don't consider the title unification match against Hearns as a championship defense.)

Sincerely,

Satan's advocate
I know you're playing The Advocate...but, I'm in the mood for a debate with someone who's not named Redrooster or Homicidal Hank.

* The Shields fight was pretty close, but I thought SRL managed to do enough to win the majority of the rounds. Personally, I thought Randy's title bid against Cuevas was a closer fight.

* Muniz quit on his stool, but Leonard had a solid lead on the cards, and it may have been frustration, as much as a physical injury that led to Armando's surrender (In fairness, it's been a long time since I've seen that fight.)

* Benitez never trained seriously for any of his fights, yet was still able to defeat the likes of Palomino and Cervantes. Yet, when he got into the ring with Leonard, he was lucky to win maybe four rounds out of the fifteen that were fought. Maybe the stoppage was quick, but it's not like Benitez was going to win the fight...and, in truth, when a fighter like Benitez is taking punishment after sustaining a knockdown, you've got to wonder how hurt he actually was.

* Chiaverini quit because Leonard was beating the holy hell out of him. Duran quit in New Orleans, but SRL made the necessary adjustments, and, was certainly coming on as the fight progressed.

* Since Leonard was the WBC champion, and since the title was at risk when he fought Hearns, it counts as a successful title defence. Hearns was leading on the scorecards, but he was in a bad, bad way, and was taking considerable abuse at the time of the stoppage. I've seen a lot worse. And, I don't think Howard was ahead on any of the cards...despite a piss-poor showing and the flash kd, Leonard still won most of the rounds, and did have Howard in trouble when the fight
was stopped.

* Leonard did a pretty good job of running the welterweight division on his way to the title. Shields, Ranzany, Price, Gant, Floyd Sr.,and Muniz were all still rated in the Top 10 when the met Leonard, and Gonzales and Viruet were in the Top 20. Leonard did good work on his way to the title, along with those victories over Hearns, Benitez, and Duran. Certainly, the work that he did warrants a higher placement than #26...had you rated him #21-#22 I might have looked the other way, but this rating, sir, is far too low.

Yours,

Drew...standard bearer for the forces of Good.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew101
I know you're playing The Advocate...but, I'm in the mood for a debate with someone who's not named Redrooster or Homicidal Hank.

* The Shields fight was pretty close, but I thought SRL managed to do enough to win the majority of the rounds. Personally, I thought Randy's title bid against Cuevas was a closer fight.

* Muniz quit on his stool, but Leonard had a solid lead on the cards, and it may have been frustration, as much as a physical injury that led to Armando's surrender (In fairness, it's been a long time since I've seen that fight.)

* Benitez never trained seriously for any of his fights, yet was still able to defeat the likes of Palomino and Cervantes. Yet, when he got into the ring with Leonard, he was lucky to win maybe four rounds out of the fifteen that were fought. Maybe the stoppage was quick, but it's not like Benitez was going to win the fight...and, in truth, when a fighter like Benitez is taking punishment after sustaining a knockdown, you've got to wonder how hurt he actually was.

* Chiaverini quit because Leonard was beating the holy hell out of him. Duran quit in New Orleans, but SRL made the necessary adjustments, and, was certainly coming on as the fight progressed.

* Since Leonard was the WBC champion, and since the title was at risk when he fought Hearns, it counts as a successful title defence. Hearns was leading on the scorecards, but he was in a bad, bad way, and was taking considerable abuse at the time of the stoppage. I've seen a lot worse. And, I don't think Howard was ahead on any of the cards...despite a piss-poor showing and the flash kd, Leonard still won most of the rounds, and did have Howard in trouble when the fight
was stopped.

* Leonard did a pretty good job of running the welterweight division on his way to the title. Shields, Ranzany, Price, Gant, Floyd Sr.,and Muniz were all still rated in the Top 10 when the met Leonard, and Gonzales and Viruet were in the Top 20. Leonard did good work on his way to the title, along with those victories over Hearns, Benitez, and Duran. Certainly, the work that he did warrants a higher placement than #26...had you rated him #21-#22 I might have looked the other way, but this rating, sir, is far too low.

Yours,

Drew...standard bearer for the forces of Good.
You may be standard bearer for the forces of good, but my boss is way more fun.

Truth is, I thought about putting Ray at 28, behind Whitaker and PBF, but I simply can't bring myself to rate 12 round boxers.

Sincerely,

Satan Redrooster Homicidal Hank D.
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: My Top 10 Greatest Welterweights

My main criteria is achievement at the weight , one great win and not doing anything else doesn't hold much water here (it would do in a p4p list) , also one loss does not put someone out of contention either if they have done good things at this weight. I do give considerable credit to talent , but the achievement factor is more.

1. Robinson
2. Armstrong
3. Leonard
4. Napoles
5. Trinidad
6. Gavilan (one of the best in terms of combo punching and setting a pace , but a lot of bad decisions giftd to him hurts his ranking)
7. Griffith (really fast , and proven but is just behind my top 6)
8. Walcott
9. Ross (his third fight with McLarnin was a classic , one of the best of a good era)
10. Cuevas (not as good as the others in this list , and this placement might annoy some , but I like him and think he had a good run before bumping into Hearns , plus his power gives him a chance against anyone)

Note - my bottom 4 are really close and could be different , fighters also eligible for their spots are Walker , De La Hoya , Hearns , Burley and others.

Burley is a difficult subject , his best weight was welterweight but most of his best wins were at middleweight , therefore it may be right to rank him higher at a weight which was not his best.
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