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Old 07-28-2007, 06:17 AM   #91
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I deliberated who would be in a Top 10 and I forgot the best fighter ever...



what a start in the day...
I knew it was a simple mistake mate. You just rushed up a list quick for me.
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Old 07-28-2007, 06:18 AM   #92
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I knew it was a simple mistake mate. You just rushed up a list quick for me.


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Old 07-28-2007, 10:29 AM   #93
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I agree with you, IMO its out of question that Roldon had one-punch- wise at least twice the power Hopkins had...
Can you imagine little Tito lasting 12 with Roldan?
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:57 AM   #94
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Of course is Hopkins a good puncher. Ko- wins over Johnson, Trinidad, DLH, etc., you must be a respectable puncher. Sorry for not writing clearly what I meant...
Don't weaken Luigi. We both know Bernard was mostly an arm puncher.

Watch the Trinidad fight and you'll see I'm right. But this level of offense only works on smaller, weaker men moving up but doesn't work on bigger men with talent. Notice how easily Roy shook off the effects of his blows.

Bernard doesn't have real power and he's no Hagler.

Have you had the chance to view Hagler-Roldan? Roldan was a great fighter that night, even staying competitive with one eye shut closed. He's a dying breed that you don't see any more.

Leonard, who was doing the commentary for the fight, had great admiration for Juan and quite impressed with his upper body movement which you don't see much of today and would give anyone fits. combine that with his strength and power and you have one tough nut to crack. Leonard himself mentioned that Roldan had the most devestating uppercut he'd seen.

Hagler shook it off but Hagler was Hagler. had Bernard actually whipped Roy then I would would hold him in the same esteem as John but he is misguided. Hopkins lost one sidedly in a title match to a weight drained, one handed middleweight fighting a conservative match as one might expect from someone using a broken hand.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:30 PM   #95
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Leeroy
My opinion has not changed. Discuss this matchup.
It is a great match up between two guys who are tougher than leather. Neither guy is likely to TKO the other. I do think Hopkins has more skill and smarts by a small margin. In close fights, I got the feeling that Hagler gave away too many rounds and in some cases lacked a killer instinct. Ill take Hopkins via a close, but clear decision.
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:06 PM   #96
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by redrooster
Can you imagine little Tito lasting 12 with Roldan?
Probably not, i'd say Tito would knock Roldan out before that.
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:25 PM   #97
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

Hopkins matches up with Hagler very well styilistically. Infact, I think Hopkins would manipulate Hagler into fighting his fight. I don't think you're going to beat Hagler by going to him otherwise you're going to get chopped up.
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:28 PM   #98
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by redrooster
Watch the Trinidad fight and you'll see I'm right. But this level of offense only works on smaller, weaker men moving up but doesn't work on bigger men with talent.

Bernard doesn't have real power and he's no Hagler.
Strange how Marvin's "level of offense" didn't do much to "smaller, weaker man moving up" Sugar Ray Leonard hey? Face it, not only did Hopkins win the fight but he also got his man out of there. When smaller peeps moved on up to have a crack at Hopkins title she was Goodnight Irene sonny boy



Quote:
Have you had the chance to view Hagler-Roldan? Roldan was a great fighter that night, even staying competitive with one eye shut closed. He's a dying breed that you don't see any more.
Great? Roldan was never great, never. He put up a fine effort vs Hagler for sure, but he wasn't great on any given night. The ending was a bit disappointing from memory. Dying breed? Take note and admire Hopkins fighting on and winning when he could have taken the easy win with a dislocated shoulder or whatever it was. It's rare tho.

Quote:
Leonard, who was doing the commentary for the fight, had great admiration for Juan and quite impressed with his upper body movement which you don't see much of today and would give anyone fits. combine that with his strength and power and you have one tough nut to crack. Leonard himself mentioned that Roldan had the most devestating uppercut he'd seen.
I thought you'd find a way to bring your main man into it

Ray says a lot of things on air but do you really believe he meant it? Roldan's uppercut is hemisphere's away from many a fine blow. You're making him sound like some sort of great fighter, he didn't even win a title for goodness sakes. It all comes back to him beating big Animal Fletcher (great C level warrior) i'd say.

Quote:
Hopkins lost one sidedly in a title match to a weight drained, one handed middleweight fighting a conservative match as one might expect from someone using a broken hand.
Rumour has it he was also living in the bottom of the lake.
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:32 PM   #99
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

Take note and admire Hopkins fighting on and winning when he could have taken the easy win with a dislocated shoulder or whatever it was. It's rare tho. [/quote]

yet he couldn't anything against a one handed fighter while fighting at full strength.

i was watching the discussion between you and Luigi. He was holding his own in the beggining, sticking to his guns until you eventually seduced him into taking your side, begging him to see things your way-even tho we all know your a troll and a liar!

Thats too bad. But his first impression was correct which is that Bernard is weak in the delivery department. Everyone knows this which is why supporters make up intangibles "hopkins has better instincts and smarts" and so on.

Yes, Ray did mean it. leonard may not be the most admirable fighter but as a commentator I give him high marks

his words were most prophetic. Did you not hear his comment at the conclusion of the 9th "he doesn't want to fight anymore" before Roldan bowed out in the following round. Right on the button.

Over the years I had seldom heard leonard as liberal, as generous with the comments as he was towards the great Roldan. Only a young Camacho could command that kind of praise from Leonard.

The fact is, he was in awe of Juan Roldan. In awe over the fact that he was still standing and won the last round until Hagler put him away. In awe of the power of his uppercuts. In awe of his physical strength. In awe of his head movement. In awe of his ability to punch thru any obstacle. In awe of this whirlwind flailing non stop round after round against the game's best p4p champion.

Roldan fought like Marciano that night with nearly perfect symmetry between offense and defense. But since you only remember it from the accounts you read in your magazine then maybe you should go back and review the tape. That way you can hear it for yourself.
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Old 07-28-2007, 10:38 PM   #100
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Take note and admire Hopkins fighting on and winning when he could have taken the easy win with a dislocated shoulder or whatever it was. It's rare tho.
yet he couldn't anything against a one handed fighter while fighting at full strength.
[/quote]

Impartial fans know this wasn't the best of Hopkins. Hopkins developed a lot more after this than Jones did. Even at this early stage Jones would be a handful and more for any 160 in history. Hopkins wouldn't have been. Later on tho, lookout.

Quote:
i was watching the discussion between you and Luigi. He was holding his own in the beggining, sticking to his guns until you eventually seduced him into taking your side, begging him to see things your way-even tho we all know your a troll and a liar!
Begging? Seducing? Troll and liar? Go give your real life size SRL monument a bit of luvvin' and come back when you're clear headed.

Quote:
Thats too bad. But his first impression was correct which is that Bernard is weak in the delivery department. Everyone knows this which is why supporters make up intangibles "hopkins has better instincts and smarts" and so on.
Wipe your chin, it's got poo dripping off it.

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Yes, Ray did mean it. leonard may not be the most admirable fighter but as a commentator I give him high marks
Only because his comments suit your agenda here haha. Any other time you dispell every single word he speaks. It's funny how the worm turns when it suits

Quote:
his words were most prophetic. Did you not hear his comment at the conclusion of the 9th "he doesn't want to fight anymore" before Roldan bowed out in the following round. Right on the button.
It's statements like these that make you the resident whipping boy. Just prior you were telling me

Quote:
Have you had the chance to view Hagler-Roldan? Roldan was a great fighter that night, even staying competitive with one eye shut closed. He's a dying breed that you don't see any more.
Now you tell me he basically quit. You have a helluva battle making your mind up on anything.

Quote:
Over the years I had seldom heard leonard as liberal, as generous with the comments as he was towards the great Roldan. Only a young Camacho could command that kind of praise from Leonard.
Re- the chin man, the chin.

Quote:
The fact is, he was in awe of Juan Roldan. In awe over the fact that he was still standing and won the last round until Hagler put him away. In awe of the power of his uppercuts. In awe of his physical strength. In awe of his head movement. In awe of his ability to punch thru any obstacle. In awe of this whirlwind flailing non stop round after round against the game's best p4p champion.
Question time -

Where historically do you rate Roldan at 160? Actually do P4P as well because your description hints you might have him top 5 P4P and maybe 2 at 160.

Roldan vs Monzon?
Roldan vs Valdez?
Roldan vs Greb?

Quote:
Roldan fought like Marciano that night with nearly perfect symmetry between offense and defense. But since you only remember it from the accounts you read in your magazine then maybe you should go back and review the tape. That way you can hear it for yourself.
You should never ever mention Roldan and defense in the same post, let alone the same sentence.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:15 PM   #101
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

it seems as tho I asked you this question before but were unable to find the answer.

What exactly would bernard do differently against Roy if given a rematch, say at 168?

The first time they faced off, Roy proved his superiority in every area I could think of.

Roy outsped him on the inside and from the outside Roy beat him to the punch something like 99 % of the time.

Even when bernard would trap Roy in a corner and went to the body, his attack had no effect, even late in the fight. And his best shots to the head didn't make Roy blink. You don't like this fact but all you can do is try and deny it.

Another question, as fair as the first. As Bernard progressed in his career, did he ever go on to become a big puncher? Because I never noticed it. Certainly didn't show it with Felix Trinidad. It took an extraordinary volume of blows to put him away whereas Roldan would have smoked him no later than 3 or 4. Maybe less the way he was going at it with Hagler.

To answer your question. Roldan has to be ranked near the top the night he faced Hagler. Many of the outstanding titlists and contenders of the past and future would have wilted under his non stop attack and bludgeoning power.

Last edited by redrooster; 07-29-2007 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:20 PM   #102
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1


My minds pretty blank.


That's something we can both agree on.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:36 PM   #103
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

Hopkins will not be appreciated for what he has been able to do until he has long been out of the sport. As far as how he would do vs Hagler I think he would’ve been one of Hagler’s toughest fights and he might have beaten Marvelous. Hagler was not perfect before he won the title or afterwards. His early losses (Monroe and Watts) and his struggles with Seales are proof that it was just not age that was exposed vs Duran and Leonard. Hagler’s ranking as an all time great like others has climbed with time. Hagler knocked out Hearns because he had no other choice. The damage Tommy laid on him put Marvin in a “Kill or be Killed” gear, as far as a stratigic ko I would have to classify it as more of a epic contest of survival. Hopkins would not need to knock out Hagler he might be able to outbox him. As far as Roldan being such a greater challenger then those that Hopkins has faced I’m not so sure about that. My friend “Irish” Teddy Mann fought him tough shortly before Roldan fought Hagler and Teddy gave him fits. That was on the Hagler/Scypion card.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:50 PM   #104
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by redrooster


That's something we can both agree on.
Not the fastest or sharpest tool in the shed are ya, going back a day and a dozen posts. Of course you might just be going back re-reading my posts to further your knowledge

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Old 07-28-2007, 11:53 PM   #105
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Default Re: Mavin Hagler Eats Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by tobkhan
Wow, what a great way to debate ... insulting other people. You are really a class act.
I didn't do it to John. He did it to himself and I'm just going along with with what he said.
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