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Old 07-17-2008, 03:48 PM   #16
Muchmoore
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven
Name some fighters who you'd' expect to beat the George Foreman who fought Frazier and Norton ('73-'74) ........
Ali does obviously, but after him I wouldn't put a lot of money down on anyone beating him. I'd pick Liston over him due to his superior boxing skills, greater jab and never came close to losing to anyone that slugged with him. Liston probably stops him in about 4. I'd pick Joe Louis over George as well but Joe didn't have the best chin so an early Foreman KO is possible, but I think Louis would KO him in the mid to late rounds.

Holmes has a good chance but it would be tough. Larry wouldn't be able to keep Foreman at a distance with a jab and Foreman is no Gerry ****ey. That's a 50/50 fight. Lennox would stand a great chance as well and I would pick Lewis over him, but in a 3 fight series Foreman would definently win at least one. Lewis had more than enough power to make Foreman think twice.

I'd make Iron Mike the favorite as well. He was short however, and Foreman usually beat up short fighters. But the difference is Tyson wasn't an inside fighter like other short Heavyweights, he was more of a mid range fighter. Tyson's edge in defense and handspeed makes the difference but it would be wild. Holyfield is a terrible matchup for George and would stand a good shot of winning.

Other than those, I'd pick Foreman over anyone else in history. He knocks out Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney etc. and was a pure wrecking ball.
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Corbett, Dempsey, Louis, Walcott, Marciano.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

One question which was never answered for me is how he would have fared against some of the small durable technicians of history.

If I ask how he fares against:

Billy Miske
Tommy Gibbons
Gene Tunney
Tomy Loughran
Maxie Rosenbloom
John Henry Lewis
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore

You dont have a lot to go on.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

I think this a really tough one. Because Foreman at his very best wasn't really tested. Frazier, great as he was, was far from his best that night. And, just as for Norton, Foreman was a stylistic mismatch for him. So, impressive as those wins were they don't tell us enough.

His third noteworthy opponent during his prime, Ali, of course seemed to expose him. But he made for example Liston and Quarry look even more terrible, since exposing fighter's weaknesses was his speciality. And what to make of Foreman's poor showings against Lyle and Young? How much did the loss to Ali - and ring rust in the case of Lyle - factor in?

So for me, Foreman is an enigma. Was he really a destructive bulldozer with the loss to Ali the exception proving the rule, or was he inheritantly a terribly limited fighter that for stylistic reasons looked much better than he really was against Frazier and Norton? You can make a case for both.

I think that Marciano and Dempsey just are too small to survive a headlong collision with Foreman. They could drop him (especially Dempsey), but in the end I see him as the last man standing. Louis might be the same story, but his sharp counter punching could very well make the difference. The same could be said of Tyson, who also carried comparable power to Foreman, but how would he take being bullied around and backed up? Not well, according to D'Amato and possibly even himself.

Holmes, Holyfield, Lewis would be favourites IMO, though.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
One question which was never answered for me is how he would have fared against some of the small durable technicians of history.

If I ask how he fares against:

Billy Miske
Tommy Gibbons
Gene Tunney
Tomy Loughran
Maxie Rosenbloom
John Henry Lewis
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore

You dont have a lot to go on.

Do you seriously have any doubts?
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:57 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Jimmy Young should get a mention also. Because well, he did it.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

1967 - FOTC Joe Frazier would TKO the 1973 Foreman inside 10 rounds, succombing to his body attack and pressure. Foreman TKO'd a fat, slightly past-it, out-of shape, over-confident Frazier by illegally pushing him around and shoving him off instead of moving and boxing.

Aside from prime Frazier, I'd say Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and possibly Joe Louis would have beat a prime Foreman.

Early 1960's Liston and 1985-1988 Mike Tyson would give George very tough fights as well.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Ali
Johnson
Tyson
Dempsey
Louis
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:09 PM   #24
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Jimmy Young should get a mention also. Because well, he did it.
Agree, it's a pity he gets few mentions because of his unpopular style.


Still though, you'd be hard pressed to make someone a comfortable favorite against Foreman.

Ali obviously. Lewis arguably, like Larry Holmes and Joe Louis. Other than that? I don't think i'd make any other fighter more than 50/50 against him.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

I think I'd make Lennox a clear favorite against George.

The power to discourage him if not put him on his ass.

The sheer size.

The willingness to use said size to tire George like Ali successfully did.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Do you seriously have any doubts?
Absolutely.

That is perhaps the great unknown about Foreman.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:18 PM   #27
prime
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by round15
1967 - FOTC Joe Frazier would TKO the 1973 Foreman inside 10 rounds, succombing to his body attack and pressure. Foreman TKO'd a fat, slightly past-it, out-of shape, over-confident Frazier by illegally pushing him around and shoving him off instead of moving and boxing.
Brave prediction. Wish I could share your view, but I can't see this. Frazier at his peak would always run into lethal trouble. He wouldn't be able to get inside without getting massively slammed and his outside game was nothing but the left hook.

And Foreman TKO'd Frazier by punching him into defeat.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

Muhammad Ali
Mike Tyson
Sonny Liston
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:39 PM   #29
round15
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

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Originally Posted by prime
Brave prediction. Wish I could share your view, but I can't see this. Frazier at his peak would always run into lethal trouble. He wouldn't be able to get inside without getting massively slammed and his outside game was nothing but the left hook.

And Foreman TKO'd Frazier by punching him into defeat.
Yeah, by pushing and shoving him around illegally. I revisited the first 1973 title fight in Jamaica. Although Foreman destroyed Joe in that fight, Frazier landed some good shots in the opening minute of that fight and backed Foreman up a bit.

It was only after that first minute where Foreman started shoving Frazier and grabbing both of his shoulders, turning him around so he could catch him coming in with uppercuts. Grabbing the opponents' shoulders and shoving him aside is not boxing, and Mercante wasn't doing his job properly in that fight.

Take nothing away from Big George, because he was scared and did what his corner told him to do. I believe this win for Foreman is still one of his greatest victories. Archie Moore told him to get Frazier out of there early because he knows that he's vulnerable in the early rounds. Even though his tactics were illegal IMO, he fought the textbook fight on how to beat Frazier and George deserves big credit for pumping his jab and making it work.

My point is that I can't envision Foreman destroying Joe Frazier every time they fight. Put Foreman against Frazier in 1971's FOTC and I think it becomes a totally different fight altogether. I have no doubts that Foreman probably knocks down Frazier early in the fight like Bonavena did when they fought, but prime Frazier wouldn't quit and he get right back up and go to work on Foreman's body.

Frazier actually did have a decent right hand, and wasn't just left hook alone. He found his right hand against Ali in the rematch and landed some good straight rights and hooks effectively. Ask Jerry Quarry and Joe Bugner about Frazier's right hand. Remember, Joe was a converted southpaw, so his right hand gained instant power off the back foot in his boxing stance.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who beats a prime George Foreman ?

If it goes more than 4 rounds than anyone has a chance. the boxers who can move and stay at long range can beat Foreman but even Ali who was not peak couldn't do that for more than one round. I don't see many fighters lasting more than 4 against the Foreman that destroyed Frazier and Norton. He was a beast.
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