Did Shavers really hit THAT hard?

[Shake]

I find young Foreman to be a surprisingly accurate puncher. I personally think he just timed well. It a took a while for them to get there, but he was usually pretty spot-on, especially if he could manhandle.

Shavers, judging by the amount of times he got his man in trouble and couldn't finish, simply has less coordination in my view.

[Vantage_West]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

i agree but georges advantages were having by far more dominating than shavers an iron jaw (which helped on getting inside and really letting loose) long reach to corner men with is jab and his size he wa s agiant ali was a big man to. but george stood tall infornt of hism an and just dropped bombs like nobodies business.

migh thave impressive power but both are a differene type of puncher

[Zakman]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Concerning Earnie's kayo record, it needs to be remembered that Joe Louis put together much better combinations, and that Tyson and Dempsey were much faster, while Baer had a steel chin. Foreman had enormous size, physical strength, and could take a punch. But Earnie had to do it all with his power..

This pretty much tells it all about Shavers. He hit hard - very hard - and probably the hardest of all time. But that's basically all he did. Each one of the guys mentioned is a better "all around" puncher even if they didn't hit as hard with one shot, because each one of them had some other element to their game.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Foreman managed, despite extreme crudeness and none-too-blazing speed. Of course, it is plausible that Shavers hit just as hard but had trouble landing, but there isn't much proof in his record--or at least, proof that a good-but-not-great puncher couldn't also produce against a low level of opposition.

Foreman's chin also allowed him to stay in shootouts when Earnie would have already been stopped. Foreman was a better fighter period.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

The impression I get from accounts of Tyson's opponents is that fans credit him with the most absurdly overrated punching power in HW history. (It seems as though Tyson's fans are perpetrating the myth of his power more than any of his opponents are.

This is your worst post ever.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think he did, Shavers power in the raw sense of the term was chilling. In terms of concussive power I'd rate him amongst the Top 3 hard-hitting HW's, for sure.

What I will say is that likes of Louis, Tyson, Liston and Lewis possessed very good raw power certainly not way behind what Shavers had. It's just these guys, could excute a punch better, were superior techicians and combined all the elements of punching (speed, body movement, leverage) together far more completely.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

This is your worst post ever.

That's it? (I was expecting a firestorm of indignation, and this is all my inflammatory rhetoric can instigate? Bummer.) If you think this is my worst post ever, you ought to check the archives. I've produced some real stinkers during my brief tawdry foray into ESB.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Shavers hurt Ali probably more than anyone else. He had to be carried back to his dressing room after the fight, according to report by Eddie Cool of Boxing News.

[groove]

Ali took a lot of hard rights from Shavers in that fight. Signs of age - To slow to react or get out of the way. He nearly had Shavers at the end of the 15th. Remarkable considering the bad shape he was in at the start of that round. He gave everything so i'm not surprised he was carried back to the dressing room.

[Russell]

Point is, that's the only time Ali didn't leave the ring on his own two feet as far as I know.

Ali was tough. So that's saying a lot.

[AnthonyJ74]

Why couldn't Shavers drop Ali? Joe Frazier and Henry Cooper both put Ali down.

[Seamus]

Is it me, or when Shavers knocked the shit out of Ellis wasn't he holding his head with his left while punching with his right?

[john garfield]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Is it me, or when Shavers knocked the shit out of Ellis wasn't he holding his head with his left while punching with his right?

Very astute of you, S. I was at ringside, and thought that too.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Hmm...

Well, Shavers has:

(green) Jimmy Young
(old) Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton

Whereas Foreman managed:

Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
(oldish) George Chuvalo (TKO, but Chuvalo was clearly hurt in any event)
Michael Moorer

I wouldn't say that Moorer was significantly more durable than Ken Norton. I'd say he was more chinny than Norton, but his superior skill made up for that. I wouldn't overestimate the chin of Ron Lyle: an old Ali had him short-circuited with one punch.

Lyle highlights another point: Foreman managed to club Lyle down over a lot of rounds, but Shavers had Lyle nearly out cold with a single left hook. I think that, while Foreman was a much better finisher than Shavers, Shavers had much more proven one-punch power, which is really my point.

Anyway, I don't think world class opposition is that suitable a way to judge raw power. After all, being a world class boxer (ie. top 5) is all about overcoming raw power, not enduring it. That's why there has never been a long-reigning heavyweight champion who had power but relatively little skill. When such boxers have become champions (Baer, Foreman, Briggs) they've not been champions for long.

Obviously you've taken his best to give such an adamant reply.

You must have an incredible chin....

Yes.