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Old 07-24-2007, 05:27 PM   #16
TBooze
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
What puts that amount of distance between the two for you?

The simple answer is:

28 Gene Tunney
27 George Dixon
26 Eder Jofre
25 Carlos Zarate
24 Alexis Arguello
23 Pernell Whitaker
22 Oscar de la Hoya
21 Pancho Villa
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Grebb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon


Honestly the truth is with the exception of maybe three fighters anyone one of 40 or so fighters can make numbers 4 to 40 in any order depending on people's opinions.

There is very little between Ali and Louis, but perhaps I underrate the full time Heavyweights when compiling my all time greatest list, hence the gap.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
I always find TBooze's list quite hard to judge. Some picks I adore, others baffle me.
I find it boring if you go with the status quo; more fun when you play devil's advocate; and it often improves my knowledge if I have to defend something that I may not agree with myself.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
I find it boring if you go with the status quo; more fun when you play devil's advocate;
So do I; but the difference between you and I is, I like to keep my own side defendable, or in other words, I can back up my opinion. Can you honestly say, with any genuine conviction, that Harry Greb deserves a place no higher than eighteen?
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
So do I; but the difference between you and I is, I like to keep my own side defendable, or in other words, I can back up my opinion. Can you honestly say, with any genuine conviction, that Harry Greb deserves a place no higher than eighteen?
Yes, Greb did not have a full career, he did not get closure to define his greatness, thus his achievements must have a bias against them, if he is to be fairly rated with his peers.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
Yes, Greb did not have a full career, he did not get closure to define his greatness, thus his achievements must have a bias against them, if he is to be fairly rated with his peers.
That is a most ridiculous assertion if ever I saw one. Just because he died early. Doesn't matter that Carlos Monzon achieved next to nothing in comparison, then?
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
That is a most ridiculous assertion if ever I saw one. Just because he died early. Doesn't matter that Carlos Monzon achieved next to nothing in comparison, then?
But Monzon had a full career and so does not have to suffer a bias there. Monzon also had different attributes and achievements had made him great. You are talking about fighters that were 40+ years apart, with different career developments.

The ridiculous assertion we who do this are all guilty of, is trying to rate 95lbs men of the 1910's against 250lbs men of the 2000's and everyone in between.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Willie Pep
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Joe Gans
10. Sam Langford
11. Barney Ross
12. Carlos Monzon
13. Joe Louis
14. Muhammad Ali
15. Tony Canzoneri
Were is Fitz?? What he did, should make him top 5 easy. I dont see why you rank one weight champs like Monzon, Joe Louis or even Ali over Fitz. Pound for pound speaking of couse.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Were is Fitz?? What he did, should make him top 5 easy. I dont see why you rank one weight champs like Monzon, Joe Louis or even Ali over Fitz. Pound for pound speaking of couse.
He is in the next bracket of five. I see no reason to rate him higher.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Why?? First 3 weight champ at heavyweight, Lightheavyweight, and Middleweight. I think we had to wait until the 1920's for some one to repeat that with Jack Kid Berg. Which is a near 30 year gap for that. Also he was mostly a middlweight takeing on the heavyweights. Flatting Sharkey and Corbett. I say he was indeed a top 5 pound for pound guy. Only Armstrong or Ross or any other 3 weight champ could claim what Fitz did. And Fitz did it FIRST.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Why?? First 3 weight champ at heavyweight, Lightheavyweight, and Middleweight. I think we had to wait until the 1920's for some one to repeat that with Jack Kid Berg. Which is a near 30 year gap for that. Also he was mostly a middlweight takeing on the heavyweights. Flatting Sharkey and Corbett. I say he was indeed a top 5 pound for pound guy. Only Armstrong or Ross or any other 3 weight champ could claim what Fitz did. And Fitz did it FIRST.
And that is significant. But his body of work outside of those accomplishments is not up to the standard of the other fighters on the list.
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:33 AM   #26
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
In Monzon's "full career" he didn;t achieve half what Greb did. Greb died at a young age, but Armstrong and he had about the same length a career, with Greb hjaving more fights. Does it matter if you die or retire young? No, it doesn't. It matters what you accomplished, nobody but you even takes into account when he died, they take into account what he achieved when he fought, not what he could've. What he had achieved was grounds for a top 3 fighter of all time, arguably #1. Your argument holds no water, and I think you know that.
Greb's career lacked closure, there has to be bias against that to be fair to his peers.

It is unfair IMO that someone like Greb finished near his best by accident not choice, whilst others carried on past their peak and were punished for it.

Last edited by Raging B(_)LL; 03-25-2006 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:23 AM   #27
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Greb's career lacked closure, there has to be bias against that to be fair to his peers.

It is unfair IMO that someone like Greb finished near his best by accident not choice, whilst others carried on past their peak and were punished for it.
So if someone goes totally rank for say 4 years, winning titles from Lightweight to Middleweight or better then retires at say 23 undefeated with multiple titles and wins over a couple of great fighters you rank them down. You're a fine man and have some nice insights, but you also have some of the wierdest criteria's i have ever seen.
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Willie Pep
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Joe Gans
10. Sam Langford
11. Barney Ross
12. Carlos Monzon
13. Joe Louis
14. Muhammad Ali
15. Tony Canzoneri
Where do you have Marciano? He has stoppage wins over your #6 and #8 while they were a bit past their best and a bit outweighed. But i don't think there are many fighters who have stoppage wins over two guys in your (or any) top10.
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:27 AM   #29
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Thank you, but I disagree about Burley. I see Burley as no more accomplished than Luis Rodriguez or Kid Gavilan (around the #35-40 level).
Yeah, having Burley in your top 20 is very much a state of mind....you may get there yet

Quote:
I find Langford's career too shrouded in mystery and uncertainty to rate him any higher; I don't know specifically how many fights he genuinely lost or threw, or how many losses were down to racist judges or whatever.
Seems odd to punish him twice though (not that it matters in the great scheme of things, but you see what I mean)...I put Langford around Greb's spot...i see a parity between these two.

Which of the two do you think has the better scalps at weights above their natural weight?
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:30 AM   #30
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Default Re: Where do you put Joe Louis all time, p4p?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Were is Fitz?? What he did, should make him top 5 easy. I dont see why you rank one weight champs like Monzon, Joe Louis or even Ali over Fitz. Pound for pound speaking of couse.

I would agree that Fitz belongs in any top 15.

It's funny, Manassa, quote rightly in my view, challanges TBooze for his placement of Greb, and in the next post he's being picked up, rightly in my view, for not having Fitz in his top 15.

I guess everyone has their ticks.
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