Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

1. You won't see it unless a time machine is made and we go back in time and get Norton and bring him to fight Holyfield and cancle the Lewis fight.

Ever heard of the Tardis?

2. Why would you "highly doubt it"? Norton is a very underrated fighter. He had great defence, he had a nice jab, only lost to the elite compotition, and IMO beat Ali 2/3 times. He packed a good punch, and he had nice body shots. His ackward defence/style would be an advantage of his too.

I highly doubt it because i think that version of Holyfield was still better than Norton, follow? Question - do you think the Norton that fought Holmes was peak? Just because he gave Larry hell doesn't mean he was the second coming. You keep telling us Holmes had a torn left bicep or whatever it was. Simple fact is Norton troubled boxers and had trouble vs aggressive bangers. Holyfield is a nice blend even later. I think he can outslug Norton when he has to and possibly even take him out.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

In those situations I typicaly put who IMO was the better fighter.

There's nothing between them still i might go with Chris' call actually.

[barneyrub]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

Lewis didn't beat better comp. Also, its not Larry's fault he didn't unify, it was politics and as usual, Don King.

Lewis had the same politics to overcome, he never signed with king and was frozen out for years as a result.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

He never seems to take anything in. He's a simpleton.

Most of us have given up, yes lol

[barneyrub]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

("Hmmmmm....time to yank some chains!")

The reason the late seventies and early to mid eighties were so moribund in the heavyweight division was because of Holmes's ridiculous superiority to the rest of the heavyweights in boxing.

The two Scott's, Frank and LeDoux, would have easily kayoed Lewis, and have achieved enshrinement in Canastota by now. In Larry's heyday, Lennox would have labored as one of his exhibition partners.

Lewis bribed Big Daddy to toss one of his championship belts in the garbage, so he could go dumpster diving for a world title of his own. (Do you really think Lennox wanted to face Bowe again, after paying off the referee to stop their Olympic match in Lewis's favor?)

Marvis Frazier would have easily outboxed Lennox from long-range, just as he did James Broad in their pro rematch. Lewis would have never been alble to win the EBU HW title with Evangelista, Zanon, or Rodriguez in the way, yet Larry didn't forfeit a single round in toying with all of them. For Lewis, confronting Cobb would have been like trying to repell a zombie from Night of the Living Dead. Ditto Ali. Lennox would have knocked out Leon Spinks's mouthpiece, then run screaming from the ring in horror. As soon as Bonecrusher Smith exposed his Moon Mullins face to Lewis, Lennox would have collapsed to the canvas, laughing for the count.

It's just too bad that Page had to bribe Holmes to pretend to avoid him. Page could have made himself a part of history by helping Larry establish the IBF, but he took the easy way out.

Conteh and ChrisPontius, I know you secretly agree with me, but I promise not to tell! (As far as calling Holmes, The Mallard, watching him fly off that car roof to leap onto Berbick leads me to believe he might answer to Daffy.)

Hilarious lol

[barneyrub]

Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan

I agree Holmes looked just as good against McCall and Mercer as Lewis did

Lewis fought Tyson 15 years past his prime and Holyfield 5 years past

his prime. Holyfield was never the same after the Bowe trilogy. People

give to much weight to his two wins against Tyson. I take both the 88 Tyson and 91 Holyfield

over a Prime Lewis

Holyfield was on his best heavyweight championship run of defences actaully when he faced Lewis, he also held 2 belts! Facts beat your opinion im afraid.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Cojimar 1945

I'm shocked JohnThomas would consider rating Holmes so highly given his points about Holmes competition. Are you rating based on something aside from accomplishments?

You've called me out pretty good and fairly here. And to think, a couple see me as a Holmes hater. One could easily make a compelling essay on why Holmes doesn't belong among the very top elite. You are right that i am not rating him just on accomplishments. For me, his skills as a fighter and my belief that he could rise very very high if needed in mythical head to head battles puts him near the top for me. I very well could be wrong. I just have a feeling when push comes to shove and the greatest ever are pitted that Holmes really lights up the scene. Like Lewis, he sometimes didn't put forth his pinnacle showings vs guys he wasn't inspired for or respectful of. I have no problem with people rating Holmes anywhere from 3 to hmmm 10 or whatever.

Larry now sits cemented in at number 4 for me but won't be going any lower unless someone very impressive comes on the scene and lasts a helluva long time. This very thread made up my mind, finally. The Klits have no chance of coming near him so change is a long way down the road.

[barneyrub]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

Why do you think Lennox is better? Larry has more speed, stamina, agility, a better jab (a key factor), better chin, more heart and durability, and better recuporative powers. Lennox only has power, size/reach, and variety of punches on Larry. And the only reason he had more of a variety was because he threw them more.

Holmes was just as hurt and shaky after getting knocked down by shavers as lewis was when he was knocked down by mccall, the only difference is different referees and Holmes getting the benifit of the doubt. So take the Mccall tko out of the picture along with holmes shavers knockdown which would be a tko loss by that same refereee and both guys were only knocked out once, how does that show Holmes had better chin.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Bottom line Lewis got knocked out by two journeyman

Sure he could compete with any heavyweight on a given night but he also

could get knocked out by a heavyweight not in the top 50 all-time

That's the difference between Lewis and the other greats

All the other greats could possibly lose to the other greats but would not get

knocked out by average fighters

Can anyone name another top 10 heavyweight in his prime who couldn't get

out of the second round against an average fighter like McCall

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Those gift decisions Holmes was given on a couple of occasions are really hurting him, and his reluctance to prove he was the better man and give rematches.

Larry didn't get giftdecisions at all. He got robbed twice in his career, arguably 3 times. Once with Spinks, once with Brian Neilson, and he lost a close one to Spinks the first time.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by barneyrub

Lewis had the same politics to overcome, he never signed with king and was frozen out for years as a result.

No he didn't. Larry would have been champ much sooner if it weren't for King. Larry was trying and trying to get King to get him big fights, and King blew him off. Then finally, with 8 days notice, King offered for him to fight Roy Williams. Larry took it, beat Roy up, even with a busted hand, and then King payed a little more attention to him. King was trying to steal money from Larry for years, and Larry wouldn't let him. King got him back for it in situations like Page. King had a bunch of different champs in the 80's, the best one was Larry, but then in 83 Larry dropped King, and refused to deal with him unless it was on his terms, and he did just that. The best thing Lewis could have done was not sign with King. King was big trouble.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

Suilaman told Holmes he would be stripped if he fought Frazier NOT Page in JUNE OF 1983- FIVE months before the Frazier fight.

Did you or did you not read what I quoted?

[UpWithEvil]

I highly doubt it because i think that version of Holyfield was still better than Norton, follow?

But hypothetically, let's assume a steroid-free, 190lb Holyfield. Now how does he do against Norton?

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

I highly doubt it because i think that version of Holyfield was still better than Norton, follow? Question - do you think the Norton that fought Holmes was peak? Just because he gave Larry hell doesn't mean he was the second coming. You keep telling us Holmes had a torn left bicep or whatever it was. Simple fact is Norton troubled boxers and had trouble vs aggressive bangers. Holyfield is a nice blend even later. I think he can outslug Norton when he has to and possibly even take him out.

OMG. Ive said that Norton gave boxers like Larry and Ali stylistic night mares many times now. But as usuall you twist my words around or flat out ignore them. I was simply saying maybe if Larry's left tricept wasn't torn, maybe it wouldn't have been as close. No Norton was in his prime when he fought Larry, he was a year or two past it, but he was still a very good fighter. I doubt Holyfield could out slug Norton at that stage in his career, maybe 4 or 5 years earlier, but not then.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by Prime Frazier DID beat Pr

I wonder how many times Bill has said "Don King" or "King" since he's been here?

100 or so.