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Old 06-22-2007, 10:18 AM   #106
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
OMG. Ive said that Norton gave boxers like Larry and Ali stylistic night mares many times now.
So fukking what? I was saying this years before you even discovered this joint.

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But as usuall you twist my words around or flat out ignore them. I was simply saying maybe if Larry's left tricept wasn't torn, maybe it wouldn't have been as close.
You're hard work, i tell ya. You've said the same damn thing as me basically, but paranoia dictates you taking a defensive position instead of just agreeing.

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No Norton was in his prime when he fought Larry, he was a year or two past it, but he was still a very good fighter.
Nobody claimed he wasn't still a very good fighter. IMO Holyfield was better!

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I doubt Holyfield could out slug Norton at that stage in his career, maybe 4 or 5 years earlier, but not then.
It was over 5 years since Norton beat Ali Bill. By contrast Holyfield had hammered Tyson just 2 and 3 years earlier than the Lewis fight. Spare me the 4 or 5 years shit.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:23 AM   #107
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
But hypothetically, let's assume a steroid-free, 190lb Holyfield. Now how does he do against Norton?
Who cares? Lewis fought 212lb Holyfield, not 190lb.
And who's to say Norton was not on the juice as well? It was already around in the 70's, too. Except for the control, that is.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:24 AM   #108
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You're hard work, i tell ya.
You sure got that right.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:27 AM   #109
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
You sure got that right.
And then some lmao
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:29 AM   #110
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by barneyrub
Holmes was just as hurt and shaky after getting knocked down by shavers as lewis was when he was knocked down by mccall, the only difference is different referees and Holmes getting the benifit of the doubt. So take the Mccall tko out of the picture along with holmes shavers knockdown which would be a tko loss by that same refereee and both guys were only knocked out once, how does that show Holmes had better chin.
Shavers hit harder than McCall, and Larry had great survival skills to make it through the round. Larry was very dangerous when he was hurt bad, Lewis wasn't as dangerous when hurt. Why would the ref stop the fight if after the knock down, if Larry wasn't letting Shavers touch him? IMO that would be a bad call if the ref stopped it. It would be different if Holmes just stood there clinching and getting hit.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:33 AM   #111
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
So fukking what? I was saying this years before you even discovered this joint.



You're hard work, i tell ya. You've said the same damn thing as me basically, but paranoia dictates you taking a defensive position instead of just agreeing.



Nobody claimed he wasn't still a very good fighter. IMO Holyfield was better!



It was over 5 years since Norton beat Ali Bill. By contrast Holyfield had hammered Tyson just 2 and 3 years earlier than the Lewis fight. Spare me the 4 or 5 years shit.
over 5 years since the first time, IMO and many others, Norton won the 3rd match with Ali, just 2 years earlier. If you want to be exact, just under 2 years.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:37 AM   #112
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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It was over 5 years since Norton beat Ali Bill. By contrast Holyfield had hammered Tyson just 2 and 3 years earlier than the Lewis fight. Spare me the 4 or 5 years shit.
I agree with most of what you're saying mate. Keep in mind however, Tyson was not exactly at his best when Holyfield pounded him either, in fact neither man was. What's more, Holyfield was 36 years old in the first Lewis fight, and was fairly close to being the same version who looked like shit against John Ruiz. I'm not entirely certain how old Norton was in 1978. I've read some sources that say he was 33, while others listed him at 35 . Although he was beyond his better days, Ken was still coming off of a rather impressive run mate. He had recently chalked up wins over undefeated bobick, top contender Young, avenged an earlier loss to Garcia, beat up Zanon, and was possibly robbed in his 3rd effort against Ali. He was also in fairly good shape, or so it appeared. Frankly, when I look at footage of Norton in 1974, as opposed to film in 1978, I don't see much of a difference from either a physique nor performance standpoint.

Was a 1999 Holyfield better than a 1978 Ken Norton? I couldn't say for sure. One thing is certain though, it's a rather close comparison. Prime for prime, I'd pick Evander as the superior of the two, but a late 90's version, was hardly the " real deal. "

At anyrate, I think Lennox Lewis would have easily dusted A late 70's version of Ken Norton, in much easier fashion than Larry did....
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:38 AM   #113
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
Larry didn't get giftdecisions at all. He got robbed twice in his career, arguably 3 times. Once with Spinks, once with Brian Neilson, and he lost a close one to Spinks the first time.
Holmes-Norton.
New York News - 10-5 Norton
Associated Press - 143-142 Norton
New York Times - 143-142 Norton
Plus, not to forget the bottle that was confiscated from Holmes' corner after 10th round, he should have been disqualified for for it (it's not allowed to use anything, but water).

Holmes - Witherspoon
Angelo Dundee had Witherspoon winning the fight. Many people who voiced their opinion had it for Witherspoon too.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:44 AM   #114
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
over 5 years since the first time, IMO and many others, Norton won the 3rd match with Ali, just 2 years earlier. If you want to be exact, just under 2 years.
My point was correct regardless. Norton was also facing a faded Ali. Holmes was utter peak. You also called the 1st Spinks fight a robbery

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Old 06-22-2007, 10:48 AM   #115
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
My point was correct regardless. Norton was also facing a faded Ali. Holmes was utter peak. You also called the 1st Spinks fight a robbery

I called the 2nd one a robbery, I called the first one close but IMO Larry won it by a round. I can see why some people gave it to Spinks. But the 2nd one was a disgrace.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:51 AM   #116
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Holmes-Norton.
New York News - 10-5 Norton
Associated Press - 143-142 Norton
New York Times - 143-142 Norton
Plus, not to forget the bottle that was confiscated from Holmes' corner after 10th round, he should have been disqualified for for it (it's not allowed to use anything, but water).

Holmes - Witherspoon
Angelo Dundee had Witherspoon winning the fight. Many people who voiced their opinion had it for Witherspoon too.
A full 3 newsoapers thought Norton won. The New York News was way off. Also, with the Witherspoon fight, many people who voiced their opinion thought Holmes won too. There is always going to be stuff like that in close fights.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:04 AM   #117
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
Shavers hit harder than McCall, and Larry had great survival skills to make it through the round. Larry was very dangerous when he was hurt bad, Lewis wasn't as dangerous when hurt. Why would the ref stop the fight if after the knock down, if Larry wasn't letting Shavers touch him? IMO that would be a bad call if the ref stopped it. It would be different if Holmes just stood there clinching and getting hit.
What are you talking about? He meant that the referee could've waved Holmes-Shavers off because Holmes was hurt badly even after he got up.
Not based on what happened after he was allowed to continue.

I'm starting to wonder if you've actually seen Lewis-McCall.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Holmes-Norton.
New York News - 10-5 Norton
Associated Press - 143-142 Norton
New York Times - 143-142 Norton
Plus, not to forget the bottle that was confiscated from Holmes' corner after 10th round, he should have been disqualified for for it (it's not allowed to use anything, but water).

Holmes - Witherspoon
Angelo Dundee had Witherspoon winning the fight. Many people who voiced their opinion had it for Witherspoon too.
I think you've mixed up the words "robbery" and "close fight".
Myself i had Holmes edging both the Witherspoon and Norton fights by one round and two rounds, respectively.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:09 AM   #118
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

i though spinks clearly outscored holmes first time round.i had witherspoon winning by a round but had larry edging norton by a round.
bill-in all honesty how in the heck do you make larry a winner in the first spinks fight?just cos you love the guy doesn't mean you can't score against him.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:13 AM   #119
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by dalek
i though spinks clearly outscored holmes first time round.i had witherspoon winning by a round but had larry edging norton by a round.
bill-in all honesty how in the heck do you make larry a winner in the first spinks fight?just cos you love the guy doesn't mean you can't score against him.
Ronald Biggs couldn't have made Larry the winner in the first Spinks fight. It's all good tho,tis good to know where credible posts lay.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:17 AM   #120
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Default Re: Greater Resume: Lewis or Holmes?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
A full 3 newsoapers thought Norton won. The New York News was way off. Also, with the Witherspoon fight, many people who voiced their opinion thought Holmes won too. There is always going to be stuff like that in close fights.
He should have given them rematches to remove any doubts of who was the better man. He chose to avoid them instead. And had the judges given these two fights to his opponents, it would be a much more damaging thing to his career than Lewis losing to McCall and Rahman on lucky punches. Norton being just a journeyman, and an old one at that, and Witherspoon being still green and unexperienced.
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