Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had...

Russell · 07-25-2007, 02:33 PM

A better record against high level competition...? And why?

Thoughts and opinions?

dmt · 07-25-2007, 02:37 PM

Ali had less loses vs top flight comp but some of his fights were close and debatable

on the other hand Charles was on the wrong end of some decisions- in particular his fight with Harold Johnson which i think he deserved- and a contro loss to Elmer Ray

Charles defeated fighers who were greater in a p4p sense

Manassa · 07-25-2007, 02:38 PM

Charles. I once did a detailed comparison but it was lost in the crash.

dmt · 07-25-2007, 02:42 PM

Archie Moore for example in a p4p sense is easily greater the Liston, Foreman, Frazier etc

but Ali's comp was awesome, best of any heavyweight

Street Lethal · 07-25-2007, 02:42 PM

Ali's record is amazing, with victories over Moore, Liston, Patterson, Williams, Folley, Terrell, Frazier, Foster, Norton, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, and many other top light heavyweights and heavyweights. He never lost in his prime. Between 1960 and 1977, he only lost twice, to two of the best heavyweights at the time, and he avenged both of these defeats twice over. He took on all comers and he was never knocked out. I like Charles a lot, but Ali's record is better.

Manassa · 07-25-2007, 02:50 PM

The thing is with Ali, a lot of his opponents have been overrated just because they fought him. Zora Folley, for instance, or Oscar Bonavena - solid fighters, but no more special than Del Flanagan or Shorty Hogue and probably not as good as Sandro Mazzinghi or Virgil Atkins. But somehow we feel obliged to mention them on Ali's resume as though they hold a massive amount of water as top flight opponents. They were good, but not really good. You thought Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle were really good? Watch Enrique Bolanos or George Araujo and you'll see that they're easily as good, yet you wouldn't necessarily hold them in as high esteem.

Ezzard · 07-25-2007, 03:23 PM

IMO only Greb and Langford have better records than Charles

janitor · 07-25-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell

A better record against high level competition...? And why?

Thoughts and opinions?

At heavyweight it is Ali.

Pound for pound it is Charles no contest.

Minotauro · 07-25-2007, 05:03 PM

Pound for pound I would have to say that Ezzard has the greater victory to win every fight in a trilogy against Moore is greater then 2.1 against Frazier and Norton plus he beat almost everyone on the black murders row. Also Charles is normally regarded as the greatest Light heavyweight of all time despite never winning the title, which shows the calibre of his win. Only Greb has better wins maybe Langford but nobody else.

janitor · 07-25-2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minotauro

Also Charles is normally regarded as the greatest Light heavyweight of all time despite never winning the title, which shows the calibre of his win.

How many fighters have been regarded as the best ever in their class without wining a title?

Some lone voices argued that Peter Jackson and Sam Langford were close to their peaks.

Mr Charles seems to be something special in this regard.

McGrain · 07-25-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manassa

Charles. I once did a detailed comparison but it was lost in the crash.

I remember that; that was the first thread of yours I took a real interest in. Excellent stuff.

Manassa · 07-25-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

I remember that; that was the first thread of yours I took a real interest in. Excellent stuff.

Thank you.

ThinBlack · 04-01-2013, 02:33 PM

Heavyweight, Ali, overall, Charles.

orriray59 · 04-01-2013, 02:36 PM

Charles.

dyna · 04-01-2013, 03:29 PM

p4p Charles, heavyweights don't even come close a bit.

Ali gets treated so good on most p4p lists because he's the greatest hw ever and the hw champ is h2h the strongest man on Earth, but I don't really care about that and Charles was p4p just the better dude.

Charles got Charley Burley on his resume, the same Charley that knocked Archie Moore down 4 times in 10 rounds and might have KO'd the man had it been 12 or even 15 rounds (Moore was shaky at the end)
He also got the lhw monster Archie Moore on his resume.
Jersey Joe Walcott
Joe Louis (Louis wasn't prime, but Charles was the smaller man)

blablabla

Better wins than Liston, Foreman, Frazier imo.

07-25-2007, 02:33 PM	#1
Russell Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 12,164 vCash: 75	Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... A better record against high level competition...? And why? Thoughts and opinions?
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07-25-2007, 02:37 PM	#2
dmt Hardest hitting hw ever East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,036 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Ali had less loses vs top flight comp but some of his fights were close and debatable on the other hand Charles was on the wrong end of some decisions- in particular his fight with Harold Johnson which i think he deserved- and a contro loss to Elmer Ray Charles defeated fighers who were greater in a p4p sense
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07-25-2007, 02:38 PM	#3
Manassa - East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ESB since '05 Posts: 9,774 vCash: 75	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Charles. I once did a detailed comparison but it was lost in the crash.
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07-25-2007, 02:42 PM	#4
dmt Hardest hitting hw ever East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 6,036 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Archie Moore for example in a p4p sense is easily greater the Liston, Foreman, Frazier etc but Ali's comp was awesome, best of any heavyweight
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07-25-2007, 02:42 PM	#5
Street Lethal Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 494 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Ali's record is amazing, with victories over Moore, Liston, Patterson, Williams, Folley, Terrell, Frazier, Foster, Norton, Foreman, Lyle, Shavers, and many other top light heavyweights and heavyweights. He never lost in his prime. Between 1960 and 1977, he only lost twice, to two of the best heavyweights at the time, and he avenged both of these defeats twice over. He took on all comers and he was never knocked out. I like Charles a lot, but Ali's record is better.
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07-25-2007, 02:50 PM	#6
Manassa - East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ESB since '05 Posts: 9,774 vCash: 75	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... The thing is with Ali, a lot of his opponents have been overrated just because they fought him. Zora Folley, for instance, or Oscar Bonavena - solid fighters, but no more special than Del Flanagan or Shorty Hogue and probably not as good as Sandro Mazzinghi or Virgil Atkins. But somehow we feel obliged to mention them on Ali's resume as though they hold a massive amount of water as top flight opponents. They were good, but not really good. You thought Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle were really good? Watch Enrique Bolanos or George Araujo and you'll see that they're easily as good, yet you wouldn't necessarily hold them in as high esteem.
Top

07-25-2007, 03:23 PM	#7
Ezzard Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: UK Posts: 1,037 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... IMO only Greb and Langford have better records than Charles
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07-25-2007, 05:03 PM	#9
Minotauro Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: May 2007 Location: London Posts: 2,886 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Pound for pound I would have to say that Ezzard has the greater victory to win every fight in a trilogy against Moore is greater then 2.1 against Frazier and Norton plus he beat almost everyone on the black murders row. Also Charles is normally regarded as the greatest Light heavyweight of all time despite never winning the title, which shows the calibre of his win. Only Greb has better wins maybe Langford but nobody else.
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04-01-2013, 02:33 PM	#13
ThinBlack Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,955 vCash: 1000	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Heavyweight, Ali, overall, Charles.
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04-01-2013, 02:36 PM	#14
orriray59 weird East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Green Isle Posts: 13,237 vCash: 82	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... Charles.
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04-01-2013, 03:29 PM	#15
dyna Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 4,559 vCash: 1551	Re: Ezzard Charles or Ali - Who had... p4p Charles, heavyweights don't even come close a bit. Ali gets treated so good on most p4p lists because he's the greatest hw ever and the hw champ is h2h the strongest man on Earth, but I don't really care about that and Charles was p4p just the better dude. Charles got Charley Burley on his resume, the same Charley that knocked Archie Moore down 4 times in 10 rounds and might have KO'd the man had it been 12 or even 15 rounds (Moore was shaky at the end) He also got the lhw monster Archie Moore on his resume. Jersey Joe Walcott Joe Louis (Louis wasn't prime, but Charles was the smaller man) blablabla Better wins than Liston, Foreman, Frazier imo.
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