Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

 
  


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-02-2008, 04:15 PM   #31
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Why are some people criticizing his corner/trainers ?
Obviously they were excellent professionals in their own right. I've known lots of people in the know who vouch for the Petronellis, their experience, expertise and professionalism. These guys were training professional fighters before most of us were born.

It baffles me how some people on here who probably never trained a professional fighter in their lives, and really have weak-as-shit credentials, think they know better than some of the best out there, or at least seem to think they know enough to state that certain trainers (who taught a GREAT champion from day one) were inadequate or mediocre.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 04:53 PM   #32
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,544
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


A rare sight indeed. Even though it was called a knockdown and Hagler took a count, the referee claimed days later he called it wrong and it should have been ruled as a slip rather than a knockdown.

With that said, still doesn't look right to see Hagler looking at Roldan's boots.
This is when the rumours of his slipping began. This fight proved that the competiion had caught up with him

Prime Hagler second to none. Greb just below then the astronomically talented and obscenely quick Roy Jones round out the top 3.
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 04:55 PM   #33
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,544
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeto
Yeah, i always say that the top 5 or so at MW (in terms of greatness) is the tightest top 5 in any weight division's history. To have a guy at 5 who others have at 2 is not really discrediting him on this subject imo, it's so close. I always had Greb, Robinson, Hagler, Monzon and Ketchel, but now i have put Hopkins in there in Ketchel's place and personally put him now at 6. So it's actually a very tight top 6. The positions on the list of Mnzon and Hagler are really difficult to determine for me.
Why not Roy Jones in place of Hopkins? Why don't people like Roy Jones? He was clearly superior to Hopkins and proved it.
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-02-2008, 05:34 PM   #34
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Why not Roy Jones in place of Hopkins? Why don't people like Roy Jones? He was clearly superior to Hopkins and proved it.
Jones' reign as a middleweight was brief. I'm pretty sure he won the vacant title against Hopkins then defended it once against Tate. Not true greatness as a middleweight. It can't be held against him as he opted to move up in weight. No matter how great he was as an athlete and how effective he was at the weight, he never accomplished enough at 160lbs.


Hopkins against Jones at middleweight. Not H2H as we know who won their encounter, although Jones caught Hopkins at the right time. He wasn't seasoned enough. Greatness at the weight, Hopkins by a country mile.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 06:02 PM   #35
jyuza
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,199
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
I have the Marvelous one at #7:

15 Joey Giardello
14 Kid McCoy
13 Nino Benvenuti
12 Tony Zale
11 Marcel Cerdan
10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey
8 Harry Greb
7 Marvin Hagler
6 Bernard Hopkins
5 Mickey Walker
4 Charley Burley
3 Stanley Ketchel
2 Ray Robinson
1 Carlos Monzon
Bullshit.
To rank Burley and Hopkins over Hagler is a joke.
jyuza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 08:17 PM   #36
Dave's Top Ten
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 579
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven
Why are some people criticizing his corner/trainers ?
Obviously they were excellent professionals in their own right. I've known lots of people in the know who vouch for the Petronellis, their experience, expertise and professionalism. These guys were training professional fighters before most of us were born.

It baffles me how some people on here who probably never trained a professional fighter in their lives, and really have weak-as-shit credentials, think they know better than some of the best out there, or at least seem to think they know enough to state that certain trainers (who taught a GREAT champion from day one) were inadequate or mediocre.
LOL Unforgiven, yep, must admit I have never trained a professional fighter in my life! But still, I think I'm allowed to ask a question? No? I am bringing it up, because, although the Petronellis were solid, I'm not sure if they have ever trained another world champ. Might well be wrong here of course (they did train Steve Collins for a while didn't they?). If Hagler had weaknesses, it was that he was over methodical at times and his games plans were sometimes not the most effective. Iam guessing some of the blame for this could lie with his trainers. Also, in his fight with Leonard his corner was void of any urgency! Hagler,with Dundee in his corner, I'm sure would have scored a stoppage that night.

Last edited by Dave's Top Ten; 08-02-2008 at 08:42 PM.
Dave's Top Ten is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 08:30 PM   #37
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,544
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Jones' reign as a middleweight was brief. I'm pretty sure he won the vacant title against Hopkins then defended it once against Tate. Not true greatness as a middleweight. It can't be held against him as he opted to move up in weight. No matter how great he was as an athlete and how effective he was at the weight, he never accomplished enough at 160lbs.


Hopkins against Jones at middleweight. Not H2H as we know who won their encounter, although Jones caught Hopkins at the right time. He wasn't seasoned enough. Greatness at the weight, Hopkins by a country mile.
"Right time". What right time? Bernard was primed for a title shot and Roy was making his first defense and both turned pro in the same year. How did Roy catch him at the right time? 28 years doesn't make you a spring chicken.

I believe it was Roy that was caught at the right time having a broken hand and weight drained. Even so, Hop couldnt do anything with him. That's greatness right there! Who knows what the result would have been had Roy been 100%

Bernard is still a good solid blue collar type even though I would never have paid to see him fight. But number of defenses isnt as impressive as beating the man himself. I stick to my guns. Roy #3, Hopkins #10
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 10:34 PM   #38
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
"Right time". What right time? Bernard was primed for a title shot and Roy was making his first defense and both turned pro in the same year. How did Roy catch him at the right time? 28 years doesn't make you a spring chicken.

I believe it was Roy that was caught at the right time having a broken hand and weight drained. Even so, Hop couldnt do anything with him. That's greatness right there! Who knows what the result would have been had Roy been 100%

Bernard is still a good solid blue collar type even though I would never have paid to see him fight. But number of defenses isnt as impressive as beating the man himself. I stick to my guns. Roy #3, Hopkins #10
A complete joke from you yet again. When rating greatness just look at what each of them did at middleweight. Not even arguable. H2H Jones beat Hopkins, but thats all he has over him.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2008, 11:12 PM   #39
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,544
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
A complete joke from you yet again. When rating greatness just look at what each of them did at middleweight. Not even arguable. H2H Jones beat Hopkins, but thats all he has over him.
how is it a joke if both were at the same stage of their careers. The fact is Roy was champion, and the future champion was in the role of the challenger. Roy Jones prevented him from gaining the title.

Winners get bragging rights it's that simple.

Since Roy beat Hopkins it stands that he could easily have accomplished as much but didnt care to rule a weak division. Besides, he had problems making weight.
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 04:41 AM   #40
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave's Top Ten
LOL Unforgiven, yep, must admit I have never trained a professional fighter in my life! But still, I think I'm allowed to ask a question? No? I am bringing it up, because, although the Petronellis were solid, I'm not sure if they have ever trained another world champ. Might well be wrong here of course (they did train Steve Collins for a while didn't they?). If Hagler had weaknesses, it was that he was over methodical at times and his games plans were sometimes not the most effective. Iam guessing some of the blame for this could lie with his trainers. Also, in his fight with Leonard his corner was void of any urgency! Hagler,with Dundee in his corner, I'm sure would have scored a stoppage that night.
I think most of the great fighters and their corners can be faulted at times.
But as things go, Hagler's record, career and all-round fighting/boxing competence is among the most perfect. There aren't many fighters ever who had less off-days than Hagler, or had more effective game plans overall. And Hagler, whose conditioning was perfect, had the same trainers since his amateur days.

And I dont subscribe to the view that training world champions particularly matters. Unless you're training them from scratch it's not so impressive. Manny Steward gets a lot of praise round here for the job he did with Lennox Lewis but Lewis was already a seasoned world titlist professional long before he worked with Steward.

I think all honest trainers, however great they are, would admit they are only as good as the fighters they work with. The Petronellis were lucky enough to have a rare and remarkable kid named Marvin Hagler walk in their gym, a kid with burning ambition and belief in sacrifice and undoubtedly plenty of latent talent and instinct for boxing. Still, Hagler needed help to get from a skinny 16 year-old kid who'd never boxed to legendary middleweight champion, and the Petronellis were foremost among those who helped. There's no real evidence that they weren't up to the job any more than any other trainers.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2008, 02:55 PM   #41
Ajfourty7
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 161
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Good point unforgiven. Its the angelo dundee arguement basicaly
Ajfourty7 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008, 04:24 AM   #42
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,865
vCash: 301
Default Re: Marvin Hagler

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyuza
Bullshit.
To rank Burley and Hopkins over Hagler is a joke.
Hopkins and in particular Burley were much smarter fighters than Hagler, with fewer glaring weaknesses, I see both outsmarting Hagler over 15 rounds, and pound for pound both of their resumes compare to the Marvelous one.
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013