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Old 07-27-2007, 03:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

7-5 Ali is about right.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Fair verdict. Ali won the second fight, clearly.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Both verdicts were correct IMO, Frazier won the first fight, Ali the second one.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.
I agree with that: the ref should have warned Ali for holding and took away points if he continued doing it. But the judges can only score the fight on the basis of the action that takes place, not on what they think would happen if the ref would enforce the rules. Going by what happened in the fight, Ali was the winner IMO. It's not the judges fault that the ref doesn't do his job.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:03 AM   #21
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhar26
I agree with that: the ref should have warned Ali for holding and took away points if he continued doing it. But the judges can only score the fight on the basis of the action that takes place, not on what they think would happen if the ref would enforce the rules. Going by what happened in the fight, Ali was the winner IMO. It's not the judges fault that the ref doesn't do his job.
I dont disagree.

Ali did enough positive boxing to outweigh what Frazier did. But he relied on his negative illegal tactics to do so.

But it boils down to whether judges can independently penalize Ali for his negative illegal tactics. I'd say they ought to be allowed to. If Ali apparently out-scores Frazier in a round but wrestles, grabs, holds and spoils his way through - and the referee ignores it all - I think the judges should be able to give it a 10-10 round even if Frazier scored with nothing. A fighter who is clearly trying to stall and disturb a fight should be marked down, whether the ref allows it or not.

Having said that, I'm not arguing with the verdict. I just think Frazier has good reason to say Ali didn't beat him. It's a tainted victory, but it shows Ali craftiness - which is part of what made him so great.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Frazier is happy the judges got it wrong and the boys at the New York Times seem to have agreed...anyone else?
I dont think it was even close.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:01 PM   #23
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.
I agree.

I don't like the referee in that fight. At all.
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

A geezer called Jerry Fitch who used to freelance for Boxing News thought Frazier won too. He didn't of course- but the refereeing was very poor.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

If the ref wasn't so incompetent Ali might have had Fraizer out in the
second round.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan
If the ref wasn't so incompetent Ali might have had Fraizer out in the
second round.
That was a weird moment.
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.
Terrible example. Bruno was docked points for hitting behind Tyson's head, not for holding. it's called ring generalship. Clinching is part of the game. Ali just figured out the right way to beat Frazier, that's all. Ali won the fight clearly, period.
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
it's called ring generalship. Clinching is part of the game. Ali just figured out the right way to beat Frazier, that's all.
With co operation from the ref...but I agree he did find the right plan, I agree.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:15 PM   #29
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Ali grabbed Frazier all night, often pulling him in with a glove gripped to the back of the neck. With his other hand he holds Frazier's arm down.

This isn't even "clinching", it's blatant HOLDING. And Ali's reaching out to hold him too. It's wrestling tactics.

I remember when Frank Bruno fought Mike Tyson the first time, he used the glove round the back of the neck hold (it's very effective when you're 6'3 and erect and the opponent is a crouching 5'11), and the referee warned Bruno and docked points very early on. If it wasn't so obvious by the 3rd or 4th round that Tyson was gonna wear him down quick, I think Bruno would have been disqualified.

Ali was doing the same thing, in fact it was worse when you look at how he reached out to nullify Frazier before Frazier was even in landing range. But he was also scoring with his flurries and retreating. Frazier was closing him down quickly and effectively but Ali would just reach out and pull Joe in and push him down (THE EXACT SAME THING he did in the TV studio brawl leading up to the fight. Blatantly not Queensberry rules).

With Ali allowed to grab, pull and hold like that, short-armed Frazier had no chance to land the same amount of punches. It's a wonder he scored at all, but he did. I guess he thought he was winning on aggression and the solid shots he did land, and I guess he thought the judges would notice that Ali was constantly stopping the action with illegal moves.

It's a hard fight to watch and a hard fight to score. If Ali outscored Frazier, he did so only by using farcical methods to stop Frazier scoring himself. Frazier did little, but he probably did as much as he could do. I mean, there are plenty of tall long-armed heavyweight boxers who could "beat" Frazier if they are told reaching out, grabbing and pulling on the back of his head are acceptable.
Damn good post.

Ali got away with a lot in that 2nd fight with Frazier.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Anyone score Ali-Frazier II For Joe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
I scored the fight 9-2-1 in favor of Ali.


You have a similar score like me, I had it 12-0 rounds for Ali!
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