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Old 08-08-2008, 07:20 PM   #46
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by redrooster



These are the scalps Camacho has in his possession: Limon, Ramirez, Rosario, Boza Edwards, Freddie Roach, Howard Davis, Pazienza, Mancini, Haugen, Duran, Leonard. Wo wouldnt want him around nowadays? He'd school the life out of everyone from 130 to LHW the way he did Leonard.
Don't you ever get tired of this same old routine?
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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How in the hell can you actually scalp Hagler?


Not to be taken literally.
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:28 PM   #48
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Don't you ever get tired of this same old routine?
D-MAC and I want to compare who has the most scalps
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:36 PM   #49
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by redrooster
D-MAC and I want to compare who has the most scalps
Biggest number of scalps only holds validity when :

A. The primes of the fighters are taken into consideration

B. The parties who are arguing the value of the fighters are reasonable in their assessments.

In past arguments, you have described Wilfred Benitez as being average. You have claimed that Hagler was past his prime against Leonard, but ignored Leonard's layoff and rising in weight. You say that Norris beat a prime Leonard, which I'm not even going to go into. I understand that you get pleasure out of irritating posters here with your nonesense, and frankly its their fault for taking the bait. But, for Christ's sake, can't you find something else to clown about over?
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:54 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Biggest number of scalps only holds validity when :

A. The primes of the fighters are taken into consideration

B. The parties who are arguing the value of the fighters are reasonable in their assessments.

In past arguments, you have described Wilfred Benitez as being average. You have claimed that Hagler was past his prime against Leonard, but ignored Leonard's layoff and rising in weight. You say that Norris beat a prime Leonard, which I'm not even going to go into. I understand that you get pleasure out of irritating posters here with your nonesense, and frankly its their fault for taking the bait. But, for Christ's sake, can't you find something else to clown about over?
Who's clowning? Look friend, when you say you cant box because you fear risking your eye, you don't come out and risk it over and over again after several years. Not when you got the kind of money Ray had.

If you come back and give the reason "I got restless" or I "miss the sport" you know it was a phony excuse all along the way he keeps risking the same eye he wasn't willing to risk earlier. I'm surprised so many people are gullible enough to believe him.

Anyways, he got what he deserved in the end and wound up a big loser
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:59 PM   #51
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by redrooster
Who's clowning? Look friend, when you say you cant box because you fear risking your eye, you don't come out and risk it over and over again after several years. Not when you got the kind of money Ray had.

If you come back and give the reason "I got restless" or I "miss the sport" you know it was a phony excuse all along the way he keeps risking the same eye he wasn't willing to risk earlier. I'm surprised so many people are gullible enough to believe him.

Anyways, he got what he deserved in the end and wound up a big loser
But, laying aside Macho Camacho's glowing resume, don't you think SRL deserves a bit of credit for what he has achieved over his career.

Where do you rank him all time?
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

Quote:
redrooster]Who's clowning? Look friend, when you say you cant box because you fear risking your eye, you don't come out and risk it over and over again after several years. Not when you got the kind of money Ray had.
A torn retina, is not the type of injury that one just jumps back into the ring immediately after sustaining. The fact that he took three years off, then rose to middleweight for the first time in his career, and defeated one of the greatest residents of that division in history, tells the story of Leonard's heart and ability.


Quote:
If you come back and give the reason "I got restless" or I "miss the sport" you know it was a phony excuse all along the way he keeps risking the same eye he wasn't willing to risk earlier. I'm surprised so many people are gullible enough to believe him.
What Leonard was doing during his time off in the mid eighties, was his own business. Did it make him a great human being? probably not. But the fact is, when it came time to redeam himself, he did so and then some. For all other doubts, see my previous statement above.

Quote:
Anyways, he got what he deserved in the end and wound up a big loser
Anytime a great champion returns from a period of abscence to face a dangerous opponent for big money, he puts himself at risk physically, mentally and reputation wise. Regardless of Leonard's intentions or the outcomes of his later fights, he neither deserved nor didn't deserve the consequences. It's all part of boxing, and quite simply, shit happens. What's more, your comments about him deserving the beatings he later took, do not validate your ongoing claims that he was anywhere near the prime stage of his life or career.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:26 PM   #53
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

Leonard was great but took to much time out and kept doing comebacks. Any fighter will tell you this finishes a fighter. It's only cuz non-fighters that post on this forum can't understand this important point. It happened with Dempsey and Ali as examples but still the BS continues...................
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:42 PM   #54
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Anyways, he got what he deserved in the end and wound up a big loser
I suppose Ray Robinson was 1 almighty loser since he lost to joey Archer then ?

Also... Leonards place in history was locked the night he beat Hagler... Ray could have went out & lost to ****in Eddie Murphy after that fight if he wanted.... you cant change what a fighter did in his best nights by continually talking about his worst nights... you can try, as Im sure you will do but you cant, its impossible to do so as much as that may hurt you rooster.

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Old 08-08-2008, 08:49 PM   #55
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by D-MAC
But, laying aside Macho Camacho's glowing resume, don't you think SRL deserves a bit of credit for what he has achieved over his career.

Where do you rank him all time?
Don't mind Magoo. He gets bent out of shape because I know how to reason my way through this kind of discusion.

Leonard got the names like you say. That helps him tremendously as with most fans the big thing to them is name recognition but when I look at a fighter I go deeper than just looking at who is on his resume.

I can tell the fighter's strengths, weaknesses, the kind of fighter they match up well against and those they match up poorly with as well as if they've faded and how far and how much they have left as a fighter, when they're ready to be taken and by who.

I like to say Leonard was one of the top fighters of the 80s. However his short career hurt him and I honestly don't think he could have gone much furhter had he gotten more ambitious and aimed for the middleweight crown. Leonard is definitely top ten of the decade, maybe even top five but the top fighter? Come on, who are we kidding?

Camacho on the other hand could have gone further with his career that is true but when people say that he wasted his talent you know they are just repeating what someone else said because they have no real knowledge of the guy. Why dont they just say so instead of carrying on with this charade?

This happens with me all the time on Youtube and then I have to go and embarass the imposter.

But tell me, do you think that going unbeaten from 1980-1990 and winning three world titles is wasting one's talent? There just wasn't anyone near his capability to test him. He was a rare breed. I remember when he made his network TV debut, Clancy and Ryan were so impressed with his abilities and so was I at the newcomer. You know I am like everyone else-skeptical at first but seeing IS believing and with Hector there was little doubt of what he could do. You know with me, I only like the best.

The only problem with Hector is that sometimes he got a little boring. It's somewhat ironic that someone who made a spectacle of themself as Hector did, could be so technically sound a fighter and even beyond that, perfect. This made many of his fights seem somewhat monotonous.

Roy Jones had the same problem during his career and frankly, the only way he was able to be beaten was to wait for the big slowdown to set in. So the real problem with Hector was that he was at least 5 level above everyone else and people don't like you when you're that good.

With Leonard he was in the limelight for two years and people praise him to no end while Hector dominates a decade and gets criticized for "wasting his talent"

You know someone's got their head on backwards and it isn't me.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:07 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Don't mind Magoo. He gets bent out of shape because I know how to reason my way through this kind of discusion.

Leonard got the names like you say. That helps him tremendously as with most fans the big thing to them is name recognition but when I look at a fighter I go deeper than just looking at who is on his resume.

I can tell the fighter's strengths, weaknesses, the kind of fighter they match up well against and those they match up poorly with as well as if they've faded and how far and how much they have left as a fighter, when they're ready to be taken and by who.

I like to say Leonard was one of the top fighters of the 80s. However his short career hurt him and I honestly don't think he could have gone much furhter had he gotten more ambitious and aimed for the middleweight crown. Leonard is definitely top ten of the decade, maybe even top five but the top fighter? Come on, who are we kidding?

Camacho on the other hand could have gone further with his career that is true but when people say that he wasted his talent you know they are just repeating what someone else said because they have no real knowledge of the guy. Why dont they just say so instead of carrying on with this charade?

This happens with me all the time on Youtube and then I have to go and embarass the imposter.

But tell me, do you think that going unbeaten from 1980-1990 and winning three world titles is wasting one's talent? There just wasn't anyone near his capability to test him. He was a rare breed. I remember when he made his network TV debut, Clancy and Ryan were so impressed with his abilities and so was I at the newcomer. You know I am like everyone else-skeptical at first but seeing IS believing and with Hector there was little doubt of what he could do. You know with me, I only like the best.

The only problem with Hector is that sometimes he got a little boring. It's somewhat ironic that someone who made a spectacle of themself as Hector did, could be so technically sound a fighter and even beyond that, perfect. This made many of his fights seem somewhat monotonous.

Roy Jones had the same problem during his career and frankly, the only way he was able to be beaten was to wait for the big slowdown to set in. So the real problem with Hector was that he was at least 5 level above everyone else and people don't like you when you're that good.

With Leonard he was in the limelight for two years and people praise him to no end while Hector dominates a decade and gets criticized for "wasting his talent"

You know someone's got their head on backwards and it isn't me.

I will probably get ripped for saying so, but that appears to be a damn fine post there redrooster.

I'm not too sure if it will change my mind regrading Leonard, but it has given me food for thought regarding both him and Camacho.

I've always admitted that I need to learn more about fighters from previous generations, and whilst I have delved into this period quite extensively I see that I have to re-double my efforts. Thanks for your views.

Not everything is black-and-white; its nice to have educational dissenters. redrooster obviously has his own views, which may differ widely from the norm, but that doesn't make those views less educational. Different people see different things.
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:12 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

^ Thanks friend for having an open mind
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:20 PM   #58
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redrooster
Don't mind Magoo. He gets bent out of shape because I know how to reason my way through this kind of discusion.

Leonard got the names like you say. That helps him tremendously as with most fans the big thing to them is name recognition but when I look at a fighter I go deeper than just looking at who is on his resume.

I can tell the fighter's strengths, weaknesses, the kind of fighter they match up well against and those they match up poorly with as well as if they've faded and how far and how much they have left as a fighter, when they're ready to be taken and by who.

I like to say Leonard was one of the top fighters of the 80s. However his short career hurt him and I honestly don't think he could have gone much furhter had he gotten more ambitious and aimed for the middleweight crown. Leonard is definitely top ten of the decade, maybe even top five but the top fighter? Come on, who are we kidding?

Camacho on the other hand could have gone further with his career that is true but when people say that he wasted his talent you know they are just repeating what someone else said because they have no real knowledge of the guy. Why dont they just say so instead of carrying on with this charade?

This happens with me all the time on Youtube and then I have to go and embarass the imposter.

But tell me, do you think that going unbeaten from 1980-1990 and winning three world titles is wasting one's talent? There just wasn't anyone near his capability to test him. He was a rare breed. I remember when he made his network TV debut, Clancy and Ryan were so impressed with his abilities and so was I at the newcomer. You know I am like everyone else-skeptical at first but seeing IS believing and with Hector there was little doubt of what he could do. You know with me, I only like the best.

The only problem with Hector is that sometimes he got a little boring. It's somewhat ironic that someone who made a spectacle of themself as Hector did, could be so technically sound a fighter and even beyond that, perfect. This made many of his fights seem somewhat monotonous.

Roy Jones had the same problem during his career and frankly, the only way he was able to be beaten was to wait for the big slowdown to set in. So the real problem with Hector was that he was at least 5 level above everyone else and people don't like you when you're that good.

With Leonard he was in the limelight for two years and people praise him to no end while Hector dominates a decade and gets criticized for "wasting his talent"

You know someone's got their head on backwards and it isn't me.
Hector never dominated a decade, nor even a single division for that matter. If Macho ever had a single win that surpassed the magnitude of Hagler, Hearns, Duran or Benitez, then I surely must have missed it. He was a great fighter no doubt, but an all time great who beat the best of his era? No way, no how. Camacho looked less than impressive in decisioning Ray Mancini who hadn't fought in some 4 years, and hadn't recorded a win in over 5. Not to mention, had lost the last two fights that he DID have. He looked rather average against Greg Haugen in their first meeting, and won indecisively in the next. Camcho spent much of his prime decisioning fragment holders who would never have a place in history, while Leonard either stopped, or dominated some of the hall of fame's best residents. The two cannot be compared, and using their 1997 meeting as a debate tool is laughable at best.

As for me getting " bent out of shape ", let me remind you that it is YOU who continuously regurgitate the same tired rhetoric after being beat down countless times. Personally, it would certainly seem to me that you above all others, have something to prove, and not someone who simply feels the need to correct falsehood with fact.......
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Old 08-09-2008, 09:35 AM   #59
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard - Great fighter.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Hector never dominated a decade, nor even a single division for that matter. If Macho ever had a single win that surpassed the magnitude of Hagler, Hearns, Duran or Benitez, then I surely must have missed it. He was a great fighter no doubt, but an all time great who beat the best of his era? No way, no how. Camacho looked less than impressive in decisioning Ray Mancini who hadn't fought in some 4 years, and hadn't recorded a win in over 5. Not to mention, had lost the last two fights that he DID have. He looked rather average against Greg Haugen in their first meeting, and won indecisively in the next. Camcho spent much of his prime decisioning fragment holders who would never have a place in history, while Leonard either stopped, or dominated some of the hall of fame's best residents. The two cannot be compared, and using their 1997 meeting as a debate tool is laughable at best.

As for me getting " bent out of shape ", let me remind you that it is YOU who continuously regurgitate the same tired rhetoric after being beat down countless times. Personally, it would certainly seem to me that you above all others, have something to prove, and not someone who simply feels the need to correct falsehood with fact.......
You could say that Mancini did win the fight Magoo. But if you're going to go by official decisions then you have to say Hector won that if you're also going to say Leonard was the best of the fab four for getting an official decision over Hagler.

You have to admit that at least. If you get the offical decision, that makes you the better fighter even if you really lost the match.

So on that note Hector did dominate the decade because he won every fight he had in the 1980s and in his PRIME at 130, was rarely touched. And plus he wasnt some flash in the pan media creation who spent two years in the limelight then decided to retire because he couldnt take the heat of competition only return to the sport in his remedial boxing program (geezers and wheezers) in slow paced carefully selected competitions.

You want to compare the two of them from 1991 that's fine with me I'll take you up on that.

You have Hector in his bout with Haugen and Leonard vs Norris. So Hector looked average and sluggish. He had a few points deducted for various reasons. It cost him the fight and deservedly so. He was a dirty fighter.

But Ray Leonard losing to a 3-1 novice completely unravelling proved he couldnt take the heat and this wasnt even to another big name like Nunn. Ray just wasn't accustomed to fast paced bouts I had been saying this since the Hagler fight.

And let's not forget who beat who head to head! Yes, Leonard was past his prime but so was Hector so it all evens out. Camacho KO 5 Ray Leonard

All that matters is what you see in the record book. You told me yourself.
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Old 08-09-2008, 09:38 AM   #60
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Ray leonard ko1 roooster........
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