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Old 07-31-2007, 09:49 AM   #91
China_hand_Joe
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Well, like I said: I am referring to professional records made in the 1840's. By '79, progress had slowed down. But then, after '79 there were not many quantum leaps, but rather a slow and gradual increase.
And boxing is the same -fullstop- On a similar curve with an ever decreasing gradient -fullstop
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:49 AM   #92
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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In a pair of 1970s running spikes I'd be less than half a second slower than in modern spikes -fullstop- It is almost purely down to training methods before the Africans take over -fullstop-
100 yards. Not mile. And you wouldn't do nearly as well with 1840's running shoes.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:52 AM   #93
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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And boxing is the same -fullstop-
It's not measurable before 1979, and after that it increased only slightly? (I'd actually say it's not measurable in modern technical terms before the 20's, when the major rule changes came. Anyway...)

Another thing to chew on: In the 100 yards, it is comparatively easy to figure out how training impacts the athlete. Do a certain program in a certain way, and your athlete gets faster. In boxing, there isn't much reliable feedback, so one would not expect boxing training to be as advanced or specialized as running. That's one of the reasons why there are many fighters today who train "old school" and still win...the same is not true of runners or weightlifters.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:00 AM   #94
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
It's not measurable before 1979, and after that it increased only slightly? (I'd actually say it's not measurable in modern technical terms before the 20's, when the major rule changes came. Anyway...)

Another thing to chew on: In the 100 yards, it is comparatively easy to figure out how training impacts the athlete. Do a certain program in a certain way, and your athlete gets faster. In boxing, there isn't much reliable feedback, so one would not expect boxing training to be as advanced or specialized as running. That's one of the reasons why there are many fighters today who train "old school" and still win...the same is not true of runners or weightlifters.
The only argument against boxing having evolved is this: "Boxing is not a measurable sport, so just perhaps there is an infinitely small chance it has not progress, since we cannot prove otherwise with a clock -fullstop-" Just look at soccer, a sport much like boxing, in that it cannot be measured -fullstop- It is quite clear soccer has progress, boxing has too, it is just a really ugly sport, so we cannot see it quite as easily -fullstop-
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:04 AM   #95
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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The only argument against boxing having evolved is this: "Boxing is not a measurable sport, so just perhaps there is an infinitely small chance it has not progress, since we cannot prove otherwise with a clock -fullstop-" Just look at soccer, a sport much like boxing, in that it cannot be measured -fullstop- It is quite clear soccer has progress, boxing has too, it is just a really ugly sport, so we cannot see it quite as easily -fullstop-
That's not what I meant. I'm referring to a training principle--that if you can measure progress, it's easier to create it.

Compared to a sprinter, boxing trainers are fumbling in the dark. They have no way of knowing how much their training has impacted their boxer, except in a very rough way. Even then, they have to take into account the opponent, their own fighter's style, and his unique physical attributes. A sprinting trainer, by comparison, just looks at the clock and easily figures out what training works.

And like I said, there are no longer any top-flight sprinters who train "old school".
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:13 AM   #96
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

Soccer is the same in terms of fumbling in the dark, it has clearly progressed -fullstop- Progress may be lesser than in measurable sports, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened -fullstop-
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:18 AM   #97
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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Soccer is the same in terms of fumbling in the dark, it has clearly progressed -fullstop- Progress may be lesser than in measurable sports, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened -fullstop-
Precisely. Progress is slower as a result, which was my point. We differ in our rates, though, and the degree & type of change.

How many more new skills will soccer/football players know ten years from now that they do not know today?
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:19 AM   #98
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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Soccer is the same in terms of fumbling in the dark, it has clearly progressed -fullstop- Progress may be lesser than in measurable sports, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened -fullstop-
You are wrong. You can make the argument that players are fitter (if you like) but not more proficent technically. The most technically excellent players are spread gentley over the century. So are the best.

Do you submit that modern tennis players are better than old school tennis players? Not the rackets or nutrition but the players? Mankinds reactions have evolved?
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:20 AM   #99
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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How many more new skills will soccer/football players know ten years from now that they do not know today?
Almost certainly none that will be of practical use.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:23 AM   #100
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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You are wrong. You can make the argument that players are fitter (if you like) but not more proficent technically. The most technically excellent players are spread gentley over the century. So are the best.

Do you submit that modern tennis players are better than old school tennis players? Not the rackets or nutrition but the players? Mankinds reactions have evolved?
The players from the 90 till now destroy those from the 60-70s in tennis, even with the same equiptment -fullstop-
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:26 AM   #101
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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The players from the 90 till now destroy those from the 60-70s in tennis, even with the same equiptment -fullstop-
Why?

And what about football? You've thrown out there that the players are better now and failed miserabley to back it up.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:27 AM   #102
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

Pretty much every single sport has progressed greatly since the 60s for various reasons, it would be nice to think boxing is special, but it is not -fullstop- Slightly less progress than some sports maybe -fullstop- But great progress regardless -fullstop-
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:28 AM   #103
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

I think the tennis and football parallels are significant. In both sports physique has improved, and as a result, the sport has become more athletic, and less based on skill and technique. Saying that, there are still players out there who have good technique as well as a superior physique compared to old-timers. But it is unlikely that over all, elite sportsmen's technique today is as good as it was back then, when, without technique, you were nothing, because these days, you can get by on pure physique to a great extent. Is my view completely wrong?
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:28 AM   #104
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Why?

And what about football? You've thrown out there that the players are better now and failed miserabley to back it up.
Fitter is better -fullstop-
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:29 AM   #105
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Default Re: ESB Essay Writing Competition: Comparing fighters from different eras

Steroids and drugs have added to 'progress' greatly....In ALL sports....
In boxing of course it helps some,but i dont think its as necessary as in sports like weightlifting and sprinting.....Boxing is one of the few sports where progress can run back or stay still as there are too many intangibles,you cant train a chin,its somewhat genetic....Toughness and heart doesnt necessarily go up,when economic times are hard or when kids are tought to struggle hard for success then this can breed the right intangibles that fighters need.....
Maradona was twice as good as any modern footballer and would easily compete in todays football world,pele,maybe not.....
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