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Old 07-29-2007, 06:48 AM   #31
BoppaZoo
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

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Originally Posted by Rosseboi
I don't have animosity to my Ameriacn brother - I love them. I get pissed off when they constantly downplay good ferign boxers though - and they do. Worse thing is they downplay it as their opinion but it's just complete and utter bias and UNFORTUNATELY for some reason for any boxer to be considered great they 1st have to be considered great in the Americans eyes - that's a fact.

This is what angers me.
thats why i do what i do. im only defending the guys that should get respect.
i agree with you 100%.

all us fans want is for our fighters to get a bit more respect and i think that goes for everbody that is a International Boxing Fan.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

I have to admit that I do sometimes favour the "international" fighter, solely on the grounds of him being "international".

I do this, partly because I usually know him better and partly because, like many non-americans - i think - I'm fed up with the American way of interacting with the rest of the world.
In Boxing as in most other aspects of life.

There is a whole world outside America and the feeling I generally have towards Americans is that you guys are oblivious to most anything going on outside of your boarders.

This has very little to do with boxing per se, but it may help to shed some light over the "anti-American" sentiment here, as in other places.

Correct me if my assumptions below are wrong. Let me state first off that I do not agree with any sort of violence - at all - performed on either side.

1. you don't understand that 9/11 is a logical consequence of your foreign policy since ww2

2. you don't understand that Israel as a state, financed by USA is the main reason for the middle east conflict, thus making YOU the main reason for it.

3. you don't understand that invading a country and fighting peeps that are defending their homes is a war that cannot be won. It never has been and history is full of examples of this.

4. you don't have much history yourselves, so history as a subject is of little importance - rendering you unable to correct the mistakes of yore and maiking them again and again.

5. you speak English and that's it - and automatically assume that the rest of us will abandon our mother tongues in order for us to communicate - when in fact our languages are, for most parts, older than yours

6. you have all the power in the world and very little understanding of what to do with it, so you play the policemen of the world. No one likes the police.

7. your nation pollutes more than all the rest of the world combined (!)
and your government won't sign agreements to lower the emissions of green house gasses. It's as if you think that pollution won't hit America as hard as the rest of the world. I don't know why you think this.. other than you are God's chosen people or something like that? Enlighten me..

8. your "constitutional rights" as individuals to persue happines only goes for those who agree with you. If your idea of happiness differs from the US model, you will be slaughtered as "terror cells" when in fact, most peeps just want to be left in peace.

9. you seem to think that all other nations wish you harm, when in fact you could just withdraw your troops and leave people alone.

10. you are omnipotent, but fear the rest of us. I guess you always have, since being evicted from the old countries and beginning the systematic extermination of anything alien.

The list goes on..
This is to say that when dealing with Americans, I for one tend to have all this in the back of my mind - which sometimes, I admit, clouds my judgement of a fighter.
When an American fighter loses to a European, I generally rejoice. Mostly because in my clouded mind, the European fighter has beaten none other than GW Bush and his terror regime (not even elected - and you still claim that you are a democratic nation, licenced to over throw foreign officials, if you thing they are wronfully installed)

I know this is unfair to a boxer who just tries to do his best and it really is something that I am aware of - but, as I said above, the world outside boxing clouds my judgement.

Seen isolated, I agree that Pernell would prolly have Zoo's number, but I would back KT in any discussion.

And JC, who is fighting my fav fighter next, will never be in any trouble against any shape of bhop, prime or no prime.. And Kessler will retire them both.
Why? because Kessler is Danish and so am I
(I hope you realize that I know this is not a valid argument I'm making, but merely an example of the way I sometimes think)

In reality, I see that JC has stuff to trouble Kessler and that x is not the ideal guy to fight if you want certain victory..

It irritates me that Eurofighters are being scolded for not going where the big fights are. Where is the biggest fight of 07?
Cardiff, wales, that's where. Why would either JC or VW want to go to Vegas for chump change to get cheateed by some bought judges like Sturm vs. ODLH, when thay can make lots more by fighting each other in Cardiff?

It's the arrogance and ignorance (funny how those two always go hand in hand, ain't it?), I think, that most non US peeps feel comes from America that have them hoping for the "international" fighter to win.

And for the record...
Football is the most played sport in the world. It's called football, because the nature of the game involves using your feet on the ball, rather than the hands (basketball, volleyball, handball (the real handball, not the silly game against a wall, that you guys think I'm referring to) american football, etc.)

So a small step in the right direction would be to acknowledge this fact and call the sport football and not some silly name that you have made up. Soccer? what is that? (this point goes for the Aussies as well - tho I'm sure they really know better their's is just habbit, rather than arrogance.

So... that said - I hereby promise to make an effort to better my ways.

Increase the peace.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

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Originally Posted by LeedsLad
Id say its more the other way round, theres a mentality that if the fighter hasnt fought in the US hes a "bum". Which of course, is total bullshit.
YES Spot on Leedslad. i agree once again.
Monzon mostly fought in South America and hardly ever fought in the USA and he gets respect.

i feel Joe Calzaghe has done the same but doesnt get no where near as much respect as he should. i feel Carlos Monzon is one of the only guys that is not from say North America that gets the respect he deserves.

how many times have we heard European fighters or Asian or Aussie guys get hell and i dont know why this is.
like ive said many times before these guys (Lewis,Tszyu,Klitschko,Wilde,Calzaghe,Pacquaio) have copt a fair bit of criticism.

Yet when i defend these guys i get hell for showing my fan side a bit to much for defending these guys.
i can handle these fighters not getting picked in a Fight to win but what i cant handle is when they say oh they were overated and only beat B Grade fighters.
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
Its not so much an animosity...as it is a negative outlook on.

Like any good US fighter is a media creation. Like anytime a US poster feels a US fighter would beat a non-US one....they do so, not because of careful analisys, but because they reside within US borders.

And trust me, its out there. I dont know where you are located (if its outside of the US, then it may explain why you dont see it as much...) but trust me, ITS PREVELANT!!! Its all over the place. I know many, MANY of the US posters here complain all of the time to each other about it. Its in almost every post of the like (US fighter vs non-US fighter).

And on top of it all, its hypocritical. Seeing as how, most of the time, there is never any points to correspond with it. Never any type of fact to back their opinion....but just, YOU FAVOR THE US GUY CAUSE HE IS FROM THE US!

Its getting disgusting...and trust me, I aint the only one sick of it.

Most of the time it is the other way round here on esb! A lot of those childish posters from the USA parrot the bullshit they have read on those biased american dominated websites like boxingtalk or that totally biased american box mag "The Ring".
There are a lot of very knowledgeable American posters here on esb,but there are a lot of those aforementiond silly kids,too.
"Shannon Briggs is the best heavy weight "
" James Toney is the best fighter out there"
and so on,and so on.
I for my part have no problem with an American poster who favours his boy against a foreign fighter!However,I strongly object some of those weird explanations why an American fighter is superior to his foreign counterpart.
I,too,root for any fighter from my home country,but that doesnt mean that I am blind or naive enough to call him the favourite just because he stems from the same country like me and his soul is similar to mine.
Mate,a lot of truth can be found in your post,but I for my part dont like your whinny attitude a lot.
Why the hell do you think this website is called eastsideboxing? Ever thought about it?
And one thing is for sure:the mechanism of international pro boxing surely work in favour of american or american based pro fighters.
Most of the leading box mags or websites are either american or american dominated.Up to a few years ago the USA was the mecca of pro boxing due to the USA's capability to provide huge amounts of money for lots of pro fights.Right now the German market is getting more and more important.Apart from a handful of elite fighters most pro boxers earn much more money there than in the USA.
And an American passport still means lots of money for pro fighter.
American supermiddle Lacy is a good example:he was schooled and totally dominated by Gaidar Gaidarbekov in his last amateur fight before he turned pro.In the paid ranks he beat a couple of American club fighters and was called one of the most promising talent of all weight classes by almost all American websited,mags,and experts.Calzaghe brutally exposed him.
Nevertheless Lacy has earned quite a lot of money in his pro career so far.
Do you really think a non-american with Lacy's skills would have earned that much money? There were dozens of fighters at the amateurs who could easily beat Lacy but who never turned pro due to the wrong passport.
A passport is very important in the paid ranks-whether you like it or not.And the most important passport is the american one at present(though a german one helps a lot ,too).
Just one examplearell Wilson,American cruiser weight.
No,I dont try to belittle him or something like that.
He seems to be a very decent cruiser with a very decent punch.
However,why the hell is he ranked ahead of Marco Huck at most leading mags and websites?
Wilson lost to both Tokarev and Cora.Tokarev beat Wilson and Cora,but was schooled and totally dominated by Huck in his last fight.
Wilson 's last fight was a victory against a totally unknown African who even lost to African journeyman Akshamba.
Surprise,surprise! You can find Wilson ' s name ahead of Huck's and Tokarev's name in most of those american and american dominated mags,websites,and so on.
Makes you think,eh!
Tell me: do you really think that you could see Wilson rated higher than Tokarev(to whom he lost,and who also beat Wilson's conqueror Cora)) or Huck(who beat Tokarev) if he hadnt had an American passport?
Of course not!
Anti american sentiment here? I dont know!
Pavlik is a great fighter.I like him a lot,but peope shouldnt be surprised to get critisized when calling him a p4p fighter and so on.
Money is th name of this game.And the Americans still have a lot of them.
There is such a huge pool of talent in the countries of the former soviet union(and of course on Cuba,too),but there is no tv money,and no capital and infrastructure for the pro business.Do you know that there are more amateur fighters in the Ukraine than in all western european countries combined?
Cuba and the countries of the former soviet union have been dominating at the amateurs for ages.They would be dominating the pro business,too,if..........money...........tv.........professional promoters.....and so and so on.
You have to understand the mechanism of the pro business.I love boxing-both amateur and pro boxing.However,I am fully aware that in the paid ranks the rules are not equal for all players.American fighers have an unfair advantage in a lot of fields.
Anti-american sentiment? No,there are good american fighters,and there are excellent american posters here on esb.
However,the first guy who jumps out of trench in a war always takes the flak.The Americans are the dominating players in this game.Therefore there are more American casulties,more critisism,and more anti sentiment than toward other nations.
I for my part get quite angry when I read stupid comments like "Larry Holmes would have done this" and "American fighter X " would have done this if he fought nowadays.
Lets not forget that at former times all of these so-called all time greats had no real competition from other countries.
If Cuban and Russian fighters had had the opportunity to turn pro 20,30 years ago a lot of those all time greats wouldnt be called all time greats at present anymore because they would have been exposed by their Cuban and Russian counterparts.
Uh! What a long post! I'd better stop here!
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

I know what you're talking about, man. I say Mayweather beats Hatton (which is painfully obvious) and every European tells me I'm an "American asshole who totally discredits Hatton, Europe, and any fighter who is un-American. This is more typical anti-European fare from the Americans. Yankee go home!" I'm like, "Uhhh, ok, but Mayweather still beats Hatton." They've been having the nerve to throw race into it lately, too, with their "Americans don't like Hatton because he's a White European" comments. And I'm thinking, "Newsflash, the majority of America is White." There's no reasoning with those guys. Hatton still loses, too.
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Old 07-29-2007, 08:05 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

Well...

The thread you refer to (all time favorites) there is on very say trend: People pick fighters from many countries, EXCEPT Americans - most Americans pick only Americans.

If anything that proves the American bias and rather that complaining that others notice that - I think it would be better to acknowledge it and discuss why it unfortunately is so.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

I haven´t read most of the thread, but let me tell you this:

- Personally I am as pro american as anyone from outside America can be. There are some things I don´t like about the US, like the religious fundamentalism, the greed, the social darwinism or the extreme law and order policy but the many good sides of this country make up for that.

- Nonetheless I only read the ESB-board because the amount of americans is relatively small. I have learned the many americans have a problem if you only doubt that they are the greatest nation under the sun or that their boxers are the greatest ones on this planet.
Even objective dicussions about the latter often lead to stupid insults from american board members. (Not from every american here!)

- So what I want to say is: It´s a little bit hard with you americans. Many of you only care for american fighters (who are considered gods only by yourself.)

- Examples? Jermain Taylor for instanance seems to be the king of the middleweight division although he never tried to unify or fought anybody with a pulse. Fighters like the Klitschkos are "paper camps" of course(?).
I forgot: Taylor beat (or not) an aging champion who beat up welterweights troughout his career.

- Hopkins hinself is p4p Nr. 1 or 2 in some guys books although he did nothing else than fight unknown guys at MW and beat another extremely overrated american in Tarver.
Hopkins always had the frame to fight at heavyweight but he kept himself starving to death in order to fight midgets. But it seems okay for the average american spectator.

- BTW: Hopkins victim Winky Wright is just another example for the american bias. He gets decisevly beaten by an old man but he is still p4p top 5 to most americans. If he was european and white people would call him an exposed and overprotected bum but not p4p top 5.

- P4P: Maywheather only won his fight againt ODLH because this full time promoter without fight experience (who is years past his prime) ran out of gas in the last 2 rounds... but still he´s p4p Nr.1? That can´t be unless you´re a biased american. Some people even have him at Nr. 20 or 30 in an ATG list. Unbelieveable! A guy who only runs!!!

- You guys remember another hype job? Lacy?
In the past I often read of him as a future hall of famer. Need I say more...
Now it seem that noone is able to give Calzaghe credit. Suddenly Lacy is just an overmatched bum.

- After the Lacy debacle some americans still ask questions like: Who´s interrested in Calzaghe-Kessler?
Answer: Not many americans as it seems- but I am always interrested when the two dominant guys of a divison fight. Regardless of nationality.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
First, I want to ask all of the mods on here to PLEASE leave this in this section of the forums....it is more valid in here in this section than anywhere else on the board.

Please...and thank you.

Now onto the post....

Ok, let me start by saying why I am making this post. As of late on here, I have noticed a huge rise in the negativity toward anything US on this forum coming from the non-us posters. Whether it be US fighters....US events....or most notably US posters.

Its become that if you favor say, Mayweather over Hatton...you do so because your from the United States. Never mind any real concrete reason.

Recently I have had this said to me because of the following...

1- I felt Whitaker would beat KT.
2- I felt PRIME Holyfield would beat Sultan.
3- I feel Hopkins still poses a huge threat to Calzaghe.

As I said, its like noone can even argue a point anymore without bringing this into the arguement....valid or not. Before, I would take this as admission of the fact that they couldnt bring anything concrete into the arguement....but the rise in this stupidity has made it MUCH more prevelent as of late. I have even seen posters that I respect HIGHLY use this.

What set this all off was this was brought up during a discussion of ALL TIME FAVORITE FIGHTERS!!!!!!!!!! What does where a fighter or a fan is from have to do with why you like them? NOTHING...thats what.

And dont get me wrong, if someone were to bring up that the mainstream US media severely underrates foriegn fighters....I would 100% agree. But, that does not lend credance for the most part here. And to be just as honest, the non-US posters on here are just as bad, if not worse in some cases as the aformentioned media outlets....and double that for the US posters....its rare we use this as an arguement (mostly when its something ridiculous that is said...never just as the meat of our point).

Sorry to go on a rant here, but I KNOW FOR A FACT that I am not the only US poster on here that is sick of this bullshit. I under most circumstances know my shit when it comes to this sport....I form my opinions off of what I have seen, what I have learned and what I know....not where I was born.

So, to all of you out there that seem to dip into the above-mentioned well everytime its a US vs Non-US fighter post....next time, please, do some research, form an opinion and attempt to present this opinion using actual boxing knowledge, rather than letting your nationalistic views cloud your judgement and ruin your posts...



(again, I hope we can keep this in the General Boxing Forum...it really doesnt apply anywhere else....and sorry for the rant....but this is just getting old and ****ing annoying)
I've noticed a number of posters who constantly decry the "racism" or "nationalism" of others when confronted with opinions or, in many cases FACTS that they don't like. When they are pressed for proof of this supposed bias, it usually boils down to "it's true because I said so." I'm sick and tired of reading the drivel from many posters here, but hey, it's the ****ing internet. Idiocy is to be expected. And frankly, there are much, much worse places in cyberspace than ESB.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

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Originally Posted by Cruiser1
That guy Odo is the worst

I'm glad this has been brought up
Yes, he is.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Club Fighter
I know what you're talking about, man. I say Mayweather beats Hatton (which is painfully obvious) and every European tells me I'm an "American asshole who totally discredits Hatton, Europe, and any fighter who is un-American. This is more typical anti-European fare from the Americans. Yankee go home!" I'm like, "Uhhh, ok, but Mayweather still beats Hatton." They've been having the nerve to throw race into it lately, too, with their "Americans don't like Hatton because he's a White European" comments. And I'm thinking, "Newsflash, the majority of America is White." There's no reasoning with those guys. Hatton still loses, too.
Don't even get me started on that shit.

To top it off, half the time that nonsense is being regurgitated by American fans who have no compunction about cheering for Europeans over other Americans strictly because of race.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:55 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by philby
It seems [some] of you Americans are not happy if the rest of us are not kissing your arses. I am sure reasonable Americans are embaressed by this!
Hey, I don't want my ass kissed. I don't view myself as superior just because of my passport. I think of a lot of this nonsense has more to do with the prevailing social and political issues of the day than sport as evinced by that long, rambling political post a page back.

I didn't vote for Dubya, so don't take your frustration over our idiotic foreign policy out on me whenever I dare to criticize a fighter who isn't from the States or cheer for one who is.
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:05 AM   #42
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Well, lets look at what you said for a second.

The biggest fights are generally made in the states. Hatton knew this, that is why he left the comfort of his home to show his skills here.

I have heard this said.

Calzaghe has stayed overseas fighting average to below average fighters for a very long time. Even he has stated his desire to do this.

I have heard that said.

Now, as for people who state Joe is a bum for not doing it yet....yes there are some that say it. I didnt say it didnt exist, but for every one US moron who does this....there are 5 non-US posters doing the same or worse.

Let me tell you a few things that were said to ME (I have been a regular on here for a LOOOOONG time....people know I know my shit....even the ones that dont nessesarily agree with what I say will tell ya that) that have led me to feeling this way and just getting fed up.

1- I stated a while back in a post about Pernell Whitaker vs KT that I favored Whitaker. I gave reasons (he fought better comp...he has the physical edge in most areas other than power...he has never been anywhere close to being KOd, and seeing as how he is easily the better boxer, KT would need a KO win and bigger punchers never could do it....etc). Basically gave a well thoughtout arguement. And I was told by about 10 different posters that Im just an american picking the american fighter....nothing else.

2- After Sultan beat Briggs, some idiot made a post about Sultan "destroying" a PRIME Evander Holyfield. I mentioned why I wouldnt think this is possible (Evander is much higher output fighter than Briggs...has a better chin...is more skilled...has proven it vs the better comp...etc.). And again....I only felt that way according to quite a few because I am american.

3- There is a favorite fighters post on here, asking what people's all time favorite fighters are (top 5). Well, after a few pages, someone said that non-US posters are picking non-US and US fighters...yet US posters arent....yet, looking back, many US posters picked foriegn (to them at least) born fighters...Mexican, PR, Canadian, European, etc. In other words, once again, there was nothing to back it up other than someones utter disdain for anything american....not even the replies RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES! And again, who cares where someone is from if they are one of your favorites????

There are tons more...these are just a few that popped out in my mind....as well as the one that set it off.

So like I said, I can understand that it wouldnt jump out nessesarily to you, being a non-US poster (not that you are one of the guilty ones...just that if its not directed toward you, it sometimes is hard to see)....but as a regular poster on here for YEARS...I can tell you that as of the last few months (always kinda been here, just been utterly ridiculous lately)....its been like 5 to 1 non-US idiots to their american counterparts using nationalism as an arguement as opposed to knowledge.
The part about the Tszyu vs Whitaker thread at 140 who wins.

i just wanted to add though i wasnt simply being just a biased fan towards Tszyu and gave plenty of reasons why i had picked Tszyu. i remember this thread and i found it very ammussing at times.

sues2nd i just wanted to say the only reason i got upset in that thread is because people made me feel like i was solely picking Tszyu because i was a fan.

but in that thread sues2nd i gave my reasons clearly and they were that against Southpaws in Tszyu's career he had a Pro record of 8 wins-0 loses with 8 KO's. and im pretty sure 6 of those southpaws were slick boxing types.
that was my reason and it wasnt until most american fans that were not (Sues2nd,Sweet Pea) were giving reasons simply beause Whitaker is ranked higher all time by Ring.
these fans upset me it wasnt the ones that gave actual evidence based on style (Sues2nd,Sweet Pea) . it was the other fans the ones that hadnt taken any notice of Tszyu. and what was worse was the Whitaker fans thought i wasnt a fan of him. i liked Whitaker and loved watching a few of his fights.

at the end of the day i was upset because Tszyu deserved more respect than Whitaker TKO 7 against Tszyu.
i admit at times i get a bit defensive but its only from the fans that dont pay attention to how hard it is for someone in Europe,Asia,etc, to make it to the top in boxing.

and some ask why and i will answer the same way always is that overseas we dont get the same training at a young age as the talented USA fighters get. its hard for these guys to make especially in the USA were the sport is bigger.

Its all about a bit more respect for me that all we international fans are after.
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by deram
Well...

The thread you refer to (all time favorites) there is on very say trend: People pick fighters from many countries, EXCEPT Americans - most Americans pick only Americans.

If anything that proves the American bias and rather that complaining that others notice that - I think it would be better to acknowledge it and discuss why it unfortunately is so.


If it proves anything, it's that you're a whining jackass who makes false accusations of "anti-white" racism at the drop of a hat.
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:52 AM   #44
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom


If it proves anything, it's that you're a whining jackass who makes false accusations of "anti-white" racism at the drop of a hat.
Good to see that you have a coherent and intelligent argument. I guess that proves a point.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:00 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Anti-American sentiment on here...

This is mild to what it use to be. Back when ESB was new it was much worse. ESB has almost become tame in my opinion. No real race or nationality wars. In fact one can get banned here now for even hinting a ethnicity or national bias. In fact ESB is rather boring now. Everytime I get into a discussion with someone about the subject of bias I seem to somehow get banned.

This is a sight created by a socialist lot. Eastern block natives that for the most part think that the U.S.A. is the biggest terrorist and the worst violator of human rights in the world.

They have for so long had to fight for recognition in the boxing world. That now that they have a measure of success they like to gloat. It is not as bad as it use to be here. With that measure of success has also come a measure of complacency. Nothing to argue about when you are on top. Or seemingly on top.

ESB is mild now compared to 5 or 6 years ago.
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