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Old 09-04-2008, 03:12 AM   #1
Bill Butcher
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Default Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

1stly - Im a fan of both & have no bias either way as I still havent decided who I like best.
I can happily watch SRL/Duran I & enjoy vintage Duran without that bitter taste that comes watching 1 of your favourites get beat BUT the same goes for the SRL/Duran II fight except vice versa.

Duran is easily 1 of the most loved fighters in history & I personally wish the `no mas` thing never happened as it tarnishes his legacy ever so slightly, I thought he fought a good fight in that 2nd fight but IMO this was Leonard at his absolute peak, even better than the Benitez, Hearns & Hagler fights & it didnt matter which Duran showed up that night as nobody was beating Leonard.

I hear stories about Duran being out of shape etc... I know that Roberto was in better shape in montreal than in new orleans (he`s never looked better than in montreal IMO) but I thought he looked in good shape in the rematch & certainly wasnt losing big when he quit, he was doing his thing, its just that SRL was doing his a little more effectively.

If Duran had stuck in there until the end then Leonard would have won a UD but the fight was shaping up as 1 of the best of all time IMO because of the great clash of styles, great fight, bad ending, worthy winner.
SRL was, fast, sharp, strong & feet to die for that night.

No version of Duran beats Leonard that night, in fact maybe only Robinson in welterweight history could have done.

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Old 09-04-2008, 03:45 AM   #2
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

I agree! Sugar Ray Leonard was awesome.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

I was much more impressed with Leonard in the Benitez fight. I didn't particularly care for this fight at all. The first was much better and actually more telling IMO.
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Yeah, I think he deserves a lot of credit. Duran quitting was an unthinkable proposition. He made Duran quit, anything else is just an excuse. Full credit to Duran in the first fight. Leonard truly thought he could beat Duran at his own game. As far as best performance, I'd lean toward Hearns I or Benitez fights, simply because Duran II is kind of an 'incomplete'.
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by natonic
Yeah, I think he deserves a lot of credit. Duran quitting was an unthinkable proposition. He made Duran quit, anything else is just an excuse. Full credit to Duran in the first fight. Leonard truly thought he could beat Duran at his own game. As far as best performance, I'd lean toward Hearns I or Benitez fights, simply because Duran II is kind of an 'incomplete'.
I do know what you mean but I dont really see it as such, I see it as an 8th rd tko, its not like it was a contraversial stoppage by the ref or doctor, Roberto couldnt handle the style on that particular night & quit, that speaks volumes for SRLs performance IMO.

There will always be some reason/excuse why Leonard beat the other greats......

Benitez didnt train properly
Hearns was tight at the weight
Duran partied his ass off after montreal & got stomach cramps
Hagler was past prime & got too slow
At the end of the day, those guys climbed into that ring knowing the standard of opponent & felt good enough going in that they could win so thats that IMO.

Thats why Leonard/Duran II should be viewed the same as the rest of the big wins because there is always something, I just thought he looked at his fastest & smoothest in the Duran II fight.
That fight gets my vote as Leonards peak.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
I do know what you mean but I dont really see it as such, I see it as an 8th rd tko, its not like it was a contraversial stoppage by the ref or doctor, Roberto couldnt handle the style on that particular night & quit, that speaks volumes for SRLs performance IMO.

There will always be some reason/excuse why Leonard beat the other greats......

Benitez didnt train properly
Hearns was tight at the weight
Duran partied his ass off after montreal & got stomach cramps
Hagler was past prime & got too slow
At the end of the day, those guys climbed into that ring knowing the standard of opponent & felt good enough going in that they could win so thats that IMO.

Thats why Leonard/Duran II should be viewed the same as the rest of the big wins because there is always something, I just thought he looked at his fastest & smoothest in the Duran II fight.
That fight gets my vote as Leonards peak.
Good points. As a Leonard fan, I get tired of hearing all those excuses. Likewise, I accept no excuses for his loss in Duran I (altough I don't recall Leonard ever making any personally). You might be right about peak performance, it's just that the distasteful ending clouds the effort. It's almost like Duran stole the ending from him.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
1stly - Im a fan of both & have no bias either way as I still havent decided who I like best.
I can happily watch SRL/Duran I & enjoy vintage Duran without that bitter taste that comes watching 1 of your favourites get beat BUT the same goes for the SRL/Duran II fight except vice versa.

Duran is easily 1 of the most loved fighters in history & I personally wish the `no mas` thing never happened as it tarnishes his legacy ever so slightly, I thought he fought a good fight in that 2nd fight but IMO this was Leonard at his absolute peak, even better than the Benitez, Hearns & Hagler fights & it didnt matter which Duran showed up that night as nobody was beating Leonard.

I hear stories about Duran being out of shape etc... I know that Roberto was in better shape in montreal than in new orleans (he`s never looked better than in montreal IMO) but I thought he looked in good shape in the rematch & certainly wasnt losing big when he quit, he was doing his thing, its just that SRL was doing his a little more effectively.

If Duran had stuck in there until the end then Leonard would have won a UD but the fight was shaping up as 1 of the best of all time IMO because of the great clash of styles, great fight, bad ending, worthy winner.
SRL was, fast, sharp, strong & feet to die for that night.

No version of Duran beats Leonard that night, in fact maybe only Robinson in welterweight history could have done.

Good points.

Sugar Ray Leonard does indeed deserve more praise that night. Had he fought like that in Montreal, Duran loses and probably quits. Many people believe that in Montreal Duran was unbeatable, but Leonard fought Duran's fight and that's why he fought himself on the other end of a decision loss. I give mad props for Duran beating Leonard considering he was a lightweight moving up, and Leonard is one of the best 147lb fighters of all time ,but I also give mad props for Leonard rematching Duran and getting redemption. That's what champions do.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
Benitez didnt train properly
Hearns was tight at the weight
Duran partied his ass off after montreal & got stomach cramps
Hagler was past prime & got too slow
At the end of the day, those guys climbed into that ring knowing the standard of opponent & felt good enough going in that they could win so thats that IMO.
This should really be the rule for how these things are judged. There are too many piss ass excuses about things like this. As you say, these were all big fights and they knew who they were stepping in with... That's all that needs to be said. A LOT was at stake every time and they all knew Leonard was tough.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

The 2nd Duran/Leonard was not a great fight.
Duran tried to walk Leonard down.
Leonard ran like a rabitt.
Duran was exhausted from chasing him.
Honestly --- if I would have paid for this fight, I would of wanted a refund.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Leonard already got the credit he deserved.

As for the fight itself, I agree with Sweet Pea. The Benitez bout was much much more impressive.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

There is a lot of debate about whether one man lost the fight or the other man won in their first 2 fights. Personally, I feel that Duran won the first fight more than Leonard lost it because more often than not SRL fought flat-footed and quite often in the pocket as he did with Duran, but I feel Duran lost the 2nd more than Leonard won it. I agree that SRL would have won a clear-cut but still pretty close decision over Duran because he was not outclassing Roberto by any means, and it's conceiveable that even the Duran of Montreal, as good as he ever was and as prepared and fired up as he ever was, could potentially have been beaten by the SRL of the 2nd fight.

Leonard deserves credit, no doubt, but as I said, I feel Duran lost it more than Leonard won it. The fire just wasn't there even before the bell rang, he looked flat compared to himself just a few monthes earlier. Duran didn't have the same motivation because he had already accomplished what he percieved to be the ultimate goal of beating Leonard, it is known that he partied way too much after the first fight and had to lose a lot of weight, and I think that part of his reason for quitting was that since he gave Leonard a rematch, he felt SRL would give him one also where he could come in better prepared.

Leonard looked very good (though not the best I've ever seen him overall), but it doesn't really come close to Duran's win in the first fight when talking about how impressive each feat was IMO.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodney
The 2nd Duran/Leonard was not a great fight.
Duran tried to walk Leonard down.
Leonard ran like a rabitt.
Duran was exhausted from chasing him.
Honestly --- if I would have paid for this fight, I would of wanted a refund.
I did pay for the fight (closed circuit).

We all left in disbelief.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71
I did pay for the fight (closed circuit).

We all left in disbelief.

Me also. At the time most thought it was a pretty even but boring fight. I think Leonard at least gets as much credit as he deserves in that fight because it was a close fight and Duran just quit it wasn't like Leonard was outclassing him. Personally i thought Leonard in the first fight fought a better fight then Leonard of the 2nd fight.
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

I don't agree, Leonard most likely would have won the second fight, by his change of tactics. But we will never know as Duran came in not in top shape. Is that Duran's fault yes, on allot of levels. But because of that it does taint the win.
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: Leonard deserves more credit for the Duran 2nd fight than he gets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher
I do know what you mean but I dont really see it as such, I see it as an 8th rd tko, its not like it was a contraversial stoppage by the ref or doctor, Roberto couldnt handle the style on that particular night & quit, that speaks volumes for SRLs performance IMO.

There will always be some reason/excuse why Leonard beat the other greats......

Benitez didnt train properly
Hearns was tight at the weight
Duran partied his ass off after montreal & got stomach cramps
Hagler was past prime & got too slow
At the end of the day, those guys climbed into that ring knowing the standard of opponent & felt good enough going in that they could win so thats that IMO.

Thats why Leonard/Duran II should be viewed the same as the rest of the big wins because there is always something, I just thought he looked at his fastest & smoothest in the Duran II fight.
That fight gets my vote as Leonards peak.
It's just not that simple. Too many Lennox Lewis and Ray Leonard fans on ESB insist on looking at the names of the vanguished only and call those of us who look more closely sour grapes. It's nonsense. And it's bias.

Tony Janiro stopped Beau Jack in their first bout. Beau Jack had just had knee surgery and hurt his leg during the fight... or at least, that is what is claimed. Does it matter? How about Larry Holmes defeat of Ali? McLarnin's TKO of Benny Leonard? Bobby Joe Young's TKO of Aaron Pryor?

Are those of us who pause before heaping glory and honor on these victors guilty of some offense? What offense? Blasphemy? The fact is that there are excuses -some legit, some not. And there are mitigating factors. The examples you gave in your post have two examples that have some -unusual- mitigating factors that dull the glory at least a little.
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