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Old 12-20-2012, 03:51 AM   #1
PhillyPhan69
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Default Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

The time has come to recognize and remember the forgotten and often undervalued Philly heavyweight! How highly do you think of Spoon? Why did he and Tyson never fight? How highly do you rank him ATG, could he be top 25-30??? What are his best or your favorite performances??? Why did he seem to have so many controversial decisions or at least onew where a winner is difficult to declare (from 82-92 he has 10 sd/md fights winning 6 and losing 4)???? Who are some greats/borderline greats you might pick him to upset?
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

He never fought Tyson because smith stopped him in a round.

His best performance was against a prime Holmes in a fight he should have won imo.

He did lose to Thomas though, close but clear.

I reckon top 40 somewhere maybe but I wouldn't call him a great hw.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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He never fought Tyson because smith stopped him in a round.

His best performance was against a prime Holmes in a fight he should have won imo.

He did lose to Thomas though, close but clear.

I reckon top 40 somewhere maybe but I wouldn't call him a great hw.
I am still waiting on your card from the Holmes fight...I am interested in what rounds you might give him....draw is the best case scenerio I can come up with if I am generous.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

He is hardly forgotten! For the waste of talent that he was, he gets tons of time on here.

But to answer the questions I agree with everything lufcrazy says, but for his best performance. I think he was at his very best in his hurrah in the mid 90s, and his destruction of Gonzales was his prime performance in that period. He never did recover from the Mercer fight, a fight I thought he deserved to win.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
The time has come to recognize and remember the forgotten and often undervalued Philly heavyweight! How highly do you think of Spoon? Why did he and Tyson never fight? How highly do you rank him ATG, could he be top 25-30??? What are his best or your favorite performances??? Why did he seem to have so many controversial decisions or at least onew where a winner is difficult to declare (from 82-92 he has 10 sd/md fights winning 6 and losing 4)???? Who are some greats/borderline greats you might pick him to upset?
He's the third best heavyweight of the 80's(IMO) and a top 30 HW as well. He had the opportunity to fight Tyson but he lost his belt to Bonecrusher and never got another chance. Even then, Mike easily could have fought Timmy instead of Pinklon Thomas or Tyrell Biggs. All the other opponents made sense for financial reasons.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

Broke British hearts when he beat Bruno, fairly handily as well in a hostile environment. Always came across well Witherspoon, i liked him.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

I'd rate him somewhere above Jim Jeffries.

From 1983 - '86 his record is pretty damned solid.
I think the Holmes fight and the first Smith fight are his best performances. His win over Bruno was quite epic, and much-remembered by boxing fans on this side of the atlantic.

He was a bit "on and off" though, and that can't be blamed entirely on Don King or drugs (as far as I know, 'spoon never did hard drugs).
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

I'll admit that the WBC/WBA Heavyweight unification matchup I wanted to see in 1987 during the HBO Heavyweight unification series would've been a showdown between the young undefeated and still slightly untested "Iron" Mike Tyson vs "Terrible" Tim Witherspoon and in a 15-round scheduled matchup, not 12.

Before Tim lost his WBA Heavyweight belt in his defense and rematch against Bonecrusher Smith in December of 1986 via first round upset KO, a guy that Tim beat fairly handily a year and a half before by 12-round decision, Tim was coming off of one of his best performances when he went to London and fought challenger and eventually future champion Frank Bruno(China Chinned Bruno)in what turned out to be a competitive fight early on before Bruno, who was also known to tire badly late in fights collapsed under Witherspoon's pressure and went down and out in the 11th round of their scheduled 15-round bout back in July of 1986 as part of the HBO Heavyweight Unification series which started in January, 1986 and went until August 1, 1987. Witherspoon was basically at his best following the dramatic come from behind knockout of Bruno and was just one major unification matchup away from possibly facing Mike Tyson, but there was a certain high broker promoter who was noticing things from a far and didn't want this particular match to happen.

Upon Tim Witherspoon's last minute put together rematch against Bonecrusher Smith at Madison Square Garden Witherspoon was scheduled to defend his WBA Heavyweight belt in what was an originally WBA ordered sanctioned rematch against the guy he took the belt from in the HBO Heavyweight unification series opener back in January, 1986 Tony "T.N.T." Tubbs in a totally forgettable boring fight between two blubbery whaled fighters that Tim won on a 15-round majority decision but right afterwards tested positive for marijuana in his post fight urinalysis.

As Tim was getting in almost more better shape for the Tubbs rematch both physically and mentally Tubbs the week of the fight decided to pull out of the fight supposedly due to a shoulder injury he suffered in training but according to those most closest to the situation it was because of an internal dispute with the promoter Don King over his impendindg purse for the Witherspoon rematch, which was slated to be $50,000. Tubbs last minute pullout of the fight put things temporarily in a tailspin in which the promoter had to find a last minute replacement and in doing so King ended up throwing in someone, Bonecrusher Smith, who at that particular time presented the very wrong style for Tim to readjust his style for which was not the same style that he had been training for originally, the Tony Tubbs rematch.

Both Tim and his trainer Slim Jim Robinson protested with both Don King, Carl King and the boxing commisioner at the time Jose Torres at the unfair last minute change of events which threw Tim's conditioning off track and eventually lead him to being a sitting duck for a hungry Bonecrusher Smith who was well in shape and was on no less than a three fight winning streak. Carl King was even rumored as whispering in Bonecrusher's ear and telling him to just jump on Tim immediately as the bell sounded and he would immediately fold.

Immediately after Tim's first round ko loss to Bonecrusher and with it his WBA Heavyweight belt and his expected $1 million dollar payday with Mike Tyson in what was apparently a set up by the promoter Don King Tim's post fight urinalysis supposedly came up positive again for marijuana and was facing a possible one year suspension by both the WBA and the New York State Boxing Commission before it was revealed a few days later that the positive test was a mistake and was that of another fighter on the same card who was never revealed.

But case in point to that entire matter Don King was basically the one behind in making sure that a young undefeated Mike Tyson, Don King's at the time future cash cow in the stealing from both Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton, did not in any way run the risk in running into an in shape and highly focused Tim Witherspoon as it would've possibly meant a huge problem for Mike who was still virtually untested at the time. If you put the best of Tim Witherspoon, by that I mean the one who beat Reynaldo Snipes, Bonecrusher Smith in first fight, James Broad, Fank Bruno and the one who almost upset Larry Holmes in May, 1983 before losing a close controversial 12-round split decision, in at that time with a still unproven and very young Tyson that version of Tim would've more than likely given him some major fits and possibly would've threw the Tyson express off track before Don King had the chance to get a taste of the money/product he would eventually steal, ummph, I mean inherit and steal, oops, I mean make lots of money off of.

Kings sole purpose was to make sure that an in shape and still primed Tim Witherspoon, or even a sharp and primed Pinklon Thomas did not enter the ring against a young Mike Tyson for fear that his future meal ticket would get visibly exposed and that's why both of those particular fights where sabotaged by King, just as possible and as well as the impending unification WBC/WBA Lightweight showdown between Hector "Macho" Camacho vs Livingstone Bramble before Bramble got scrambled in two rounds by former champion Edwin "El Chapo" Rosario who had just fought Camacho and lost by a close controversial split decision. Kings plan in making what he thought would be a more lucrative rematch between Camacho-Rosario was to sabotage a unification battle between Camacho-Bramble by getting Bramble bumped off by Rosario which was by making sure Bramble went into the ring soft and out of shape, Bramble got married just two weeks before the fight, and assuring Livingstone that Edwin was not the same fighter he once was and was completely disheartned by the loss to Camacho all the while King was telling Edwin to be in the best shape possible and that all he had to do was beat Livingstone and the big money rematch with "Macho", King's big money man at the time and a fight he wanted to do all along, was all his. But in the end that all crumbled when Camacho left Don King and would'nt give Rosario a rematch.

That's precisely what King spent all of 1986-1987 doing, sabotaging particular fights!

All props to "Terrible" Tim Witherspoon.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
The time has come to recognize and remember the forgotten and often undervalued Philly heavyweight! How highly do you think of Spoon? Why did he and Tyson never fight? How highly do you rank him ATG, could he be top 25-30??? What are his best or your favorite performances??? Why did he seem to have so many controversial decisions or at least onew where a winner is difficult to declare (from 82-92 he has 10 sd/md fights winning 6 and losing 4)???? Who are some greats/borderline greats you might pick him to upset?


Very good,albeit underachieving, fighter. One of the candidates for the 'third best heavyweight of the eighties' award.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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I am still waiting on your card from the Holmes fight...I am interested in what rounds you might give him....draw is the best case scenerio I can come up with if I am generous.
I had it 115-113 to spoon.

I'll put an rbr up when I rewatch it. It is a fight close enough to go either way but i scored it for spoon and thought he proved to be Holmes superior that night. I can't consider Larry the best hw in the world from that point on. He struggled twice with Spinks and avoided the top ranked heavyweights in between.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:38 AM   #11
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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Originally Posted by Nate 2011 View Post
I'll admit that the WBC/WBA Heavyweight unification matchup I wanted to see in 1987 during the HBO Heavyweight unification series would've been a showdown between the young undefeated and still slightly untested "Iron" Mike Tyson vs "Terrible" Tim Witherspoon and in a 15-round scheduled matchup, not 12.

Before Tim lost his WBA Heavyweight belt in his defense and rematch against Bonecrusher Smith in December of 1986 via first round upset KO, a guy that Tim beat fairly handily a year and a half before by 12-round decision, Tim was coming off of one of his best performances when he went to London and fought challenger and eventually future champion Frank Bruno(China Chinned Bruno)in what turned out to be a competitive fight early on before Bruno, who was also known to tire badly late in fights collapsed under Witherspoon's pressure and went down and out in the 11th round of their scheduled 15-round bout back in July of 1986 as part of the HBO Heavyweight Unification series which started in January, 1986 and went until August 1, 1987. Witherspoon was basically at his best following the dramatic come from behind knockout of Bruno and was just one major unification matchup away from possibly facing Mike Tyson, but there was a certain high broker promoter who was noticing things from a far and didn't want this particular match to happen.

Upon Tim Witherspoon's last minute put together rematch against Bonecrusher Smith at Madison Square Garden Witherspoon was scheduled to defend his WBA Heavyweight belt in what was an originally WBA ordered sanctioned rematch against the guy he took the belt from in the HBO Heavyweight unification series opener back in January, 1986 Tony "T.N.T." Tubbs in a totally forgettable boring fight between two blubbery whaled fighters that Tim won on a 15-round majority decision but right afterwards tested positive for marijuana in his post fight urinalysis.

As Tim was getting in almost more better shape for the Tubbs rematch both physically and mentally Tubbs the week of the fight decided to pull out of the fight supposedly due to a shoulder injury he suffered in training but according to those most closest to the situation it was because of an internal dispute with the promoter Don King over his impendindg purse for the Witherspoon rematch, which was slated to be $50,000. Tubbs last minute pullout of the fight put things temporarily in a tailspin in which the promoter had to find a last minute replacement and in doing so King ended up throwing in someone, Bonecrusher Smith, who at that particular time presented the very wrong style for Tim to readjust his style for which was not the same style that he had been training for originally, the Tony Tubbs rematch.

Both Tim and his trainer Slim Jim Robinson protested with both Don King, Carl King and the boxing commisioner at the time Jose Torres at the unfair last minute change of events which threw Tim's conditioning off track and eventually lead him to being a sitting duck for a hungry Bonecrusher Smith who was well in shape and was on no less than a three fight winning streak. Carl King was even rumored as whispering in Bonecrusher's ear and telling him to just jump on Tim immediately as the bell sounded and he would immediately fold.

Immediately after Tim's first round ko loss to Bonecrusher and with it his WBA Heavyweight belt and his expected $1 million dollar payday with Mike Tyson in what was apparently a set up by the promoter Don King Tim's post fight urinalysis supposedly came up positive again for marijuana and was facing a possible one year suspension by both the WBA and the New York State Boxing Commission before it was revealed a few days later that the positive test was a mistake and was that of another fighter on the same card who was never revealed.

But case in point to that entire matter Don King was basically the one behind in making sure that a young undefeated Mike Tyson, Don King's at the time future cash cow in the stealing from both Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton, did not in any way run the risk in running into an in shape and highly focused Tim Witherspoon as it would've possibly meant a huge problem for Mike who was still virtually untested at the time. If you put the best of Tim Witherspoon, by that I mean the one who beat Reynaldo Snipes, Bonecrusher Smith in first fight, James Broad, Fank Bruno and the one who almost upset Larry Holmes in May, 1983 before losing a close controversial 12-round split decision, in at that time with a still unproven and very young Tyson that version of Tim would've more than likely given him some major fits and possibly would've threw the Tyson express off track before Don King had the chance to get a taste of the money/product he would eventually steal, ummph, I mean inherit and steal, oops, I mean make lots of money off of.

Kings sole purpose was to make sure that an in shape and still primed Tim Witherspoon, or even a sharp and primed Pinklon Thomas did not enter the ring against a young Mike Tyson for fear that his future meal ticket would get visibly exposed and that's why both of those particular fights where sabotaged by King, just as possible and as well as the impending unification WBC/WBA Lightweight showdown between Hector "Macho" Camacho vs Livingstone Bramble before Bramble got scrambled in two rounds by former champion Edwin "El Chapo" Rosario who had just fought Camacho and lost by a close controversial split decision. Kings plan in making what he thought would be a more lucrative rematch between Camacho-Rosario was to sabotage a unification battle between Camacho-Bramble by getting Bramble bumped off by Rosario which was by making sure Bramble went into the ring soft and out of shape, Bramble got married just two weeks before the fight, and assuring Livingstone that Edwin was not the same fighter he once was and was completely disheartned by the loss to Camacho all the while King was telling Edwin to be in the best shape possible and that all he had to do was beat Livingstone and the big money rematch with "Macho", King's big money man at the time and a fight he wanted to do all along, was all his. But in the end that all crumbled when Camacho left Don King and would'nt give Rosario a rematch.

That's precisely what King spent all of 1986-1987 doing, sabotaging particular fights!

All props to "Terrible" Tim Witherspoon.

I don't buy that Don King sabotaged Witherspoon for the sake of Tyson.
In fact, King very probably expected Witherspoon to defeat Smith.

Witherspoon lost to Smith basically on purpose, or at least because he was so demoralized and unfocussed and had no will to win, because he was sick of Don King, ****ed off that he'd been forced to fight Smith at late-notice, and still hadn't been paid for the Bruno fight.
I don't think King cared who won between Smith and Witherspoon.

Perhaps I'm under-estimating Don King's genius though.

I agree, I was looking forward to Witherspoon v Tyson too. I would have picked Tim to win the whole unification series but I wasn't quite aware of the **** that was going on behind the scenes, until Tubbs pulled out of the December '86 clash . As soon as I saw Witherspoon enter the ring against Smith I could see his mind was elsewhere.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
The time has come to recognize and remember the forgotten and often undervalued Philly heavyweight! How highly do you think of Spoon? Why did he and Tyson never fight? How highly do you rank him ATG, could he be top 25-30??? What are his best or your favorite performances??? Why did he seem to have so many controversial decisions or at least onew where a winner is difficult to declare (from 82-92 he has 10 sd/md fights winning 6 and losing 4)???? Who are some greats/borderline greats you might pick him to upset?


I rate ‘Spoon as a top 25 head to head heavyweight, and feel he has a better than even chance to beat quite a few of the champions before him.

Many talk of Witherpoon’s right hand, but when he was in shape and focused, he had a very good defense, could counter, and a top level chin.

Don King blackballed Witherpsoon. The powers that controlled Tyson in my opinion did not want to risk a fight with Witherspoon. For openers, Spoon and some similarities to James “Quick “Tillis, who went the distance with Tyson, and made him at times look bad along the way. The difference was between Tills and Witherspoon was this. Witherspoon was Philly gym tough, hit much harder than, and was bigger. Had Tyson fought Witherpsoon, and beaten him, I would view it as Tyson’s best victory. I also think Witherpsoon would have a real shot to defeat Tyson.

Looking at the records, Witherpsoon beat some of the guys Tyson gave title shots to after Witherpsoon defeated them…Bruno, Tubbs, and Smith.

When this happens in boxing, I view it as an injustice to the man who never received a title shot by the champion. The Witherspooon vs. Holmes fight was close. I scored it, and gave it to Holmes by narrow marrgin. Timmy just did not win enough of the early rounds.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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For openers, Spoon and some similarities to James “Quick “Tillis, who went the distance with Tyson, and made him at times look bad along the way. The difference was between Tills and Witherspoon was this. Witherspoon was Philly gym tough, hit much harder than, and was bigger.

Witherspoon was nothing like Tillis stylistically.
I can't think of similarities.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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I don't buy that Don King sabotaged Witherspoon for the sake of Tyson.
In fact, King very probably expected Witherspoon to defeat Smith.

Witherspoon lost to Smith basically on purpose, or at least because he was so demoralized and unfocussed and had no will to win, because he was sick of Don King, ****ed off that he'd been forced to fight Smith at late-notice, and still hadn't been paid for the Bruno fight.
I don't think King cared who won between Smith and Witherspoon.

Perhaps I'm under-estimating Don King's genius though.

I agree, I was looking forward to Witherspoon v Tyson too. I would have picked Tim to win the whole unification series but I wasn't quite aware of the **** that was going on behind the scenes, until Tubbs pulled out of the December '86 clash . As soon as I saw Witherspoon enter the ring against Smith I could see his mind was elsewhere.
I don't buy any of that either. Why would King throw Smith in as such a formidable roadblock to a Tyson fight knowing 'Spoon had already beaten him handily once? As to the differences in styles the late change offered, supposedly giving Smith the edge, so what? That happens all the time in boxing, and doesn't necessarily hurt anything. What differences was Tim going to see, a slower fighter? One that he already had first-hand knowledge of anyway?

Meh.
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Old 12-21-2012, 02:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Tim Witherspoon appreciation thread!

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I don't buy any of that either. Why would King throw Smith in as such a formidable roadblock to a Tyson fight knowing 'Spoon had already beaten him handily once? As to the differences in styles the late change offered, supposedly giving Smith the edge, so what? That happens all the time in boxing, and doesn't necessarily hurt anything. What differences was Tim going to see, a slower fighter? One that he already had first-hand knowledge of anyway?

Meh.
Smith was never intended to be a roadblock because Timmy threw the fight. I didn't want to mention it in my previous post because of how it makes Witherspoon look.
C'mon, Spoon had wars with Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas and Frank Bruno FFS. Now all of a sudden, he gets destroyed by Bonecrusher Smith? He was getting robbed blind by Don King and he wanted out of his contract.
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