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Old 07-29-2007, 03:34 PM   #1
Maxmomer
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Default How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

I know he was only knocked out once (and he probably threw that fight) but I have no idea how many times he was knocked down. Aside from the Firpo fight I can't think of any others but I'm no expert.
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

tunney
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

He was knockdown one time, 11 times but got up to win, one of his earler fights. I suppose we never know for sure how many times Dempsey was down.
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

A teenage Dempsey was knocked down nine times in the first round of his initial ten round draw against Johnny Sudenberg. This was in Jack's eleventh recorded match. He dropped into a four point stance for an instant against Firpo (which may well have been ruled a slip today, or by a competent referee), he was shoved out of the ring by Firpo (which no competent referee would rule as an official knockdown), he took a courtroom testified dive in the first encounter with Flynn, and he was dropped to one knee for an instant in the Tunney rematch.

"Officially," he hit the deck 13 times, but only the nine knockdowns against Sudenberg, and the flash KD against Tunney seem to be clearly legitimate.
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

I could have sworn I've read somewhere that he'd been knocked down 13 times. The books in my loft though so I can't confirm it :(
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:09 PM   #6
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
I know he was only knocked out once (and he probably threw that fight) but I have no idea how many times he was knocked down. Aside from the Firpo fight I can't think of any others but I'm no expert.
He was down against Johnny Sudenberg numerous times in an early fight, and was dropped by Firpo twice, Tunney, and at least one or two others.
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
he was shoved out of the ring by Firpo (which no competent referee would rule as an official knockdown)
How would you say that? Firpo landed 2 or 3 hard punches right on the button, Dempseys legs were gone and he fell out of the ring.

Firpo may have been lucky in knocking Dempsey out of the ring, but fact is he nailed Dempsey with hard shots in a row and Dempsey went down as a result of that.... that's a knockdown.
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Old 07-29-2007, 09:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
How would you say that? Firpo landed 2 or 3 hard punches right on the button, Dempseys legs were gone and he fell out of the ring.

Firpo may have been lucky in knocking Dempsey out of the ring, but fact is he nailed Dempsey with hard shots in a row and Dempsey went down as a result of that.... that's a knockdown.
I'm looking at the YouTube video and it looks like a half punch/half shove deal to me.
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Old 07-29-2007, 09:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
How would you say that? Firpo landed 2 or 3 hard punches right on the button, Dempseys legs were gone and he fell out of the ring.

Firpo may have been lucky in knocking Dempsey out of the ring, but fact is he nailed Dempsey with hard shots in a row and Dempsey went down as a result of that.... that's a knockdown.
Watch the movie film of that match. There is only one time in the entire fight where one boxer's glove is on the other's head for more than a single frame, and that's when Firpo plants his fist in Dempsey's face for around four frames or more, then shoves downward. (Even sportswriters at ringside described it as a shove.) The back of Dempsey's knees were clipped by the ring ropes as his head went under the top rope. Beyond any doubt, if Firpo had landed those punches in mid ring, Dempsey would not have fallen down. (Yes, I've studied the movie film of that match.) Years later, the same thing happened to Joe Louis against Buddy Baer, only Baer didn't shove Louis down with sustained contact from his hand.

The final proof that Dempsey wasn't knocked out of the ring by truly devastating punches is demonstrated by the way he's firing back before the first round ends, after he gets back in the ring. The reason Firpo is so tentative in attacking Dempsey after Jack regains his feet, is because Luis knows Dempsey didn't fall out of the ring from a bell ringing blow, but a shove. (Sportswriters within hearing range of Dempsey at ringside quoted him with saying a loud "Allez-oop!" in the next day's papers, as he climbed back to his feet.) As easily as Dempsey walked all the way across the ring back to his corner at the end of round one, and as quickly and easily as he floored and then knocked out Firpo (dropping him for the last time just 47 seconds into round two), it becomes self evident that Dempsey was never seriously stunned in that bout. A combatant knocked senseless wouldn't have been able to help the much larger Firpo to his feet with the ease that Dempsey did after Johnny Gallagher counted him out. (By virtue of having lost control of the action so completely, referee Gallagher never again officiated in a title contest.)

To boost the legend of the contest, Dempsey made himself out to be in more serious trouble than he actually was. The truth is, it was a massacre more on the scale of Johansson/Patterson I, or Foreman/Frazier I, except than Dempsey dropped Luis nine times, rather than five or seven, and that Dempsey put his man down the final time for substantially more than a count of ten.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Watch the movie film of that match. There is only one time in the entire fight where one boxer's glove is on the other's head for more than a single frame, and that's when Firpo plants his fist in Dempsey's face for around four frames or more, then shoves downward. (Even sportswriters at ringside described it as a shove.) The back of Dempsey's knees were clipped by the ring ropes as his head went under the top rope. Beyond any doubt, if Firpo had landed those punches in mid ring, Dempsey would not have fallen down. (Yes, I've studied the movie film of that match.) Years later, the same thing happened to Joe Louis against Buddy Baer, only Baer didn't shove Louis down with sustained contact from his hand.

The final proof that Dempsey wasn't knocked out of the ring by truly devastating punches is demonstrated by the way he's firing back before the first round ends, after he gets back in the ring. The reason Firpo is so tentative in attacking Dempsey after Jack regains his feet, is because Luis knows Dempsey didn't fall out of the ring from a bell ringing blow, but a shove. (Sportswriters within hearing range of Dempsey at ringside quoted him with saying a loud "Allez-oop!" in the next day's papers, as he climbed back to his feet.) As easily as Dempsey walked all the way across the ring back to his corner at the end of round one, and as quickly and easily as he floored and then knocked out Firpo (dropping him for the last time just 47 seconds into round two), it becomes self evident that Dempsey was never seriously stunned in that bout. A combatant knocked senseless wouldn't have been able to help the much larger Firpo to his feet with the ease that Dempsey did after Johnny Gallagher counted him out. (By virtue of having lost control of the action so completely, referee Gallagher never again officiated in a title contest.)

To boost the legend of the contest, Dempsey made himself out to be in more serious trouble than he actually was. The truth is, it was a massacre more on the scale of Johansson/Patterson I, or Foreman/Frazier I, except than Dempsey dropped Luis nine times, rather than five or seven, and that Dempsey put his man down the final time for substantially more than a count of ten.
Now, I agree that Firpo at least partially shoved Dempsey out of the ring, but I don't think you're being reasonable in claiming that Dempsey wasn't in serious trouble and that the fight was a "massacre" ala Johansson-Patterson or Foreman-Frazier. Dempsey is very clearly hurt by hard punches in the sequence in which he goes back to the ropes. That's the main reason he goes back to the ropes, in fact- because Firpo is hitting him with hard punches and hurting him.
You can see Firpo land a couple thudding body shots, then go to the head. His first couple head shots look only to glance off Dempsey, but as Dempsey turns, you can see Firpo start connecting more cleanly, and Dempsey goes back into the ropes. Dempsey visibly sags and is shaken up by one of the right hands while he's against the ropes, and the last right before he goes through lands hard. The blow that sends Dempsey through the ropes is clearly thrown with force, and Dempsey looks like he's folding under the shot anyway, although I concede he may not have gone clean out of the ring had Firpo not kept his glove on him and pushed as he was going.
Firpo hesitant to go after him? From what I see, immediately after Dempsey is back on his feet, Firpo rushes straight at him and throws an overhand right, then a left-right before being tied up. As the round ends, you can see Dempsey is backing up and holding on, plainly not himself. As the story goes, he asked his corner after sitting down thereafter what round he'd been knocked out in.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: How many times was Jack Dempsey knocked down?

You pretty much took the words out of my mouth, MF.
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