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Old 09-13-2008, 06:37 AM   #1
DINAMITA
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Default Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

I was having a look at Charles's record around 168 today, and I noticed that in losing a 10-round UD to Jimmy Bivins (31-5) in January 1943:


Charles took seven counts: four times for nine-counts in round three; for a nine-count in round four; for a nine-count in round five; and for a two count at the bell in round eight.


Seven counts?! And then 2 months later against Lloyd Marshall (39-6-2):


Charles was knocked down eight times.

En route to an 8th round TKO loss.



To those who know of these fights : were there mitigating circumstances here, or was Charles simply in poor form? I mean, these do appear to be pretty spectacular and crushing defeats for a guy only in his early 20s, and yet he posts excellent wins around this time over Charley Burley, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, and Marshall in a rematch.


Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting his greatness for 1 second, I'd just like to know WTF happened in those 2 fights?!
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:45 AM   #2
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Bivins and Marshal were both great fighters.

That didnt help.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Bivins, on form, could have beaten literally anybody, ever, at around that weight. Marshall was exactly the same. They were both monsters, absolutey monsters. And he avenged both defeats.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Bivins, on form, could have beaten literally anybody, ever, at around that weight. Marshall was exactly the same. They were both monsters, absolutey monsters. And he avenged both defeats.
Do you think Charles had a good chin?
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

A little thing going on called World War 2 and not yet reaching his prime may have effected him. Plus both were great. A defeat can make a fighter be far better, improving their all round game
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

I obviously knew he lost to both guys and did beat them again after the war ... I did not know how badly he was beat on each time ... who knows about the chin ? All we can go on is his record and how rarely he was stopped prior to the Walcott loss many years later ...
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Ezzard had a weakness and it was indeed his chin. Keep in mind that he really bloomed after the war, and both guys were serious -Bivins was not only about 10 lbs bigger, but he was a master, and Marshall -his KO % notwithstanding, could hit like hell.

Also, he was fighting every 4 weeks, sometimes less, and such losses are far more likely when you put yourself at risk so much more than modern guys with their pristine, but misleading records.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:16 AM   #8
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ezzard had a weakness and it was indeed his chin.
What makes you say that? In something like 70 fights, with an extremely high amount of them against both current (at the time) and all time top opposition, he was only stopped once when he was in his own weight class, by said fighter.

Then he fought a lot of heavyweights, guys naturally bigger than him, and was only stopped by Walcott and Marciano on the second attempt. In fact, he is the only one to ever go the full 15 with Rocky.

I don't see any problems with his chin.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #9
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ezzard had a weakness and it was indeed his chin.
Charles had no major weakness.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Charles was only 22 and both Bivins and Marshall are all time greats also those losses helped him and he developed greatly after the war.
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACFAN84
I was having a look at Charles's record around 168 today, and I noticed that in losing a 10-round UD to Jimmy Bivins (31-5) in January 1943:


Charles took seven counts: four times for nine-counts in round three; for a nine-count in round four; for a nine-count in round five; and for a two count at the bell in round eight.


Seven counts?! And then 2 months later against Lloyd Marshall (39-6-2):


Charles was knocked down eight times.

En route to an 8th round TKO loss.



To those who know of these fights : were there mitigating circumstances here, or was Charles simply in poor form? I mean, these do appear to be pretty spectacular and crushing defeats for a guy only in his early 20s, and yet he posts excellent wins around this time over Charley Burley, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, and Marshall in a rematch.


Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting his greatness for 1 second, I'd just like to know WTF happened in those 2 fights?!
Charles was only 21 at the time, hadn't grown into himself fully; most of the subsequent fights you reference came after he went into the military for three years, even though they're right next to these fights on his record. He'd beaten Burley, who was a natural welterweight/middleweight, but at that stage, Bivins and Marshall were stronger and more experienced than he was, and both were great fighters in their own right. Charles went into the military for three years after these fights, and came back a changed man- he beat the pair a combined total of six times in rematches from '46 onward.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Charles was only 21 at the time, hadn't grown into himself fully; most of the subsequent fights you reference came after he went into the military for three years, even though they're right next to these fights on his record. He'd beaten Burley, who was a natural welterweight/middleweight, but at that stage, Bivins and Marshall were stronger and more experienced than he was, and both were great fighters in their own right. Charles went into the military for three years after these fights, and came back a changed man- he beat the pair a combined total of six times in rematches from '46 onward.
wow

Great post
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Bivins was a monster for a 21 year old supermiddleweight to be taking on.

He was 5' 9'' with an 80'' reach and was generaly regarded as the best heavyweight outside of Louis when the war started.

Charles was thrown to the wolves.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACFAN84

To those who know of these fights : were there mitigating circumstances here, or was Charles simply in poor form? I mean, these do appear to be pretty spectacular and crushing defeats for a guy only in his early 20s, and yet he posts excellent wins around this time over Charley Burley, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, and Marshall in a rematch.
I don't know about any "mitigating circumstances" or Charles' form, but Charles was not yet in his prime at the time of those fights. His talent was such that he could already beat some top fighters (like Burley and Maxim), but he didn't really have the experience needed to make him a complete fighter, which was probably exposed in those losses.

When he came out of the military a few years later, he was a significantly bigger and better fighter. That's when he hit his prime, as shown by decisive wins over Marshall and Bivins in rematches, as well as Moore three times.
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ezzard Charles@168 - WTF happened against Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Charles was thrown to the wolves.
Agreed. He was already fighting experienced former champs like Teddy Yarosz and Ken Overlin, who probably had about 100 fights each, while he himself was only in his 2nd or 3rd year as a pro. And he probably should never have been put in with Burley, who was considered by many to be the best middleweight in the world at that time, but just his raw talent allowed him to pull off the upset both times.
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