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Old 08-01-2007, 06:36 AM   #16
Cachibatches
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by smokey
My point was that dominanting a weak division with losses to questionable opponents (Purity and Sanders, Brewster defended the title for a while for more credibility) makes being an all-time great heavyweight becomes difficult to make a case for. How do you get ranked relative to guys like Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali? They had losses, but not against mid level fighters when they were in their prime. People question Marciano's greatness due to relatively weaker opposition during his reign, and HE NEVER LOST!

Would Leon Spinks be recognized as an ATG heavyweight? He was a universally recognized champ. That by itself doesn't do it.
Well stated. Very well stated.

To be int he running for ATG status, every flaw is magnified, every loss is scrutinized. If you survive this process, you are an ATG.

11 knockdowns, 3 stoppage losses against weak competition, and an asterix next to quite a few of the big name victories. That is not ATG material.

I am not saying he can't do it over the long run. But to say that he is not going to be recognized becasue of color and ethnicity is wrong.
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Old 08-01-2007, 06:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

Dominating a division (especially a weak division) does not necessarily mean a fighter can reach ATG status. Wlad's a good fighter, a very good fighter, but I just don't see greatness in him, or his brother for that matter.

Greatness is not a numbers game. Floyd Patterson was the youngest heavyweight champion ever and the first to regain the title. He made quite a few title defences too. Yet, nobody would call him an ATG.

I'm not saying it's out of the question for Wlad to one day be an ATG, but simply unifying the titles or making a string of defences is just not enough. Nowhere near.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by j0hn0
seems to me that even when he does win now, its always with asterisk, (*despite the losses to sanders, brewster). and his opposition isnt credited for facing the best hw in the world, they just as often questioned for losing to a guy with "no heart" and "no chin"...

whats worse is there simply doesnt seem to be the competition out there to change any of it. if he beats povetkin, holyfield, and any of the other current title holders in his next 3 fights...does that really raise his status all that much? even if LL came back and fought him, it would be a middle aged over the hill LL that wlad wouldnt get credit for...


so fair or not, is it even possible for him to reach any kind of ATG status?
Wlad will be in the hall of fame. He is the best heavyweight in this time period, and such a man always gets the nod for the hall of fame. Boxing’s hall of fame has liberal standards, and a high induction rate.

For the stat geeks, Wlad is something like 10-2 in title fights, has a great ring record, and has scored a high percentage of knockouts. Some of those knockouts have fantastic replay value.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

at this point I can say there are some ATG's he would beat and there are some that would beat him,we have to see how he developes and improves, when a fighter hits his 30's, he starts to relax in the ring so we may not have seen the best of Vlad,time will tell, he certainly would be a problem for the champs of the last 4 decades, would he beat them? would he be an easy opponent? time will tell
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by Cachibatches
Well stated. Very well stated.

To be int he running for ATG status, every flaw is magnified, every loss is scrutinized. If you survive this process, you are an ATG.

11 knockdowns, 3 stoppage losses against weak competition, and an asterix next to quite a few of the big name victories. That is not ATG material.

I am not saying he can't do it over the long run. But to say that he is not going to be recognized becasue of color and ethnicity is wrong.
The bald truth is, most hall of fame heavyweights lost more often, and were knocked out more often…by lesser punchers. A fighter can only fight who is in his era.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by smokey
My point was that dominanting a weak division with losses to questionable opponents (Purity and Sanders, Brewster defended the title for a while for more credibility) makes being an all-time great heavyweight becomes difficult to make a case for. How do you get ranked relative to guys like Joe Louis and Muhammed Ali? They had losses, but not against mid level fighters when they were in their prime. People question Marciano's greatness due to relatively weaker opposition during his reign, and HE NEVER LOST!

Would Leon Spinks be recognized as an ATG heavyweight? He was a universally recognized champ. That by itself doesn't do it.
So Lennox Lewis has no right to be an ATG, isn´t it? He lost to midlevel fighters Mccall and Rahman, who aren´t better than Brewster or Sanders.....

As well as Sonny Liston, who lost to Marty Marshall (who?).

BTW Klitchko had his losses before his prime. Especially the loss to Puritty was nothing but unexperience.....but never a lack of skill....

I think denying him a priori an ATG-status is nonsense....
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
Dominating a division (especially a weak division) does not necessarily mean a fighter can reach ATG status. Wlad's a good fighter, a very good fighter, but I just don't see greatness in him, or his brother for that matter.

I'm not saying it's out of the question for Wlad to one day be an ATG, but simply unifying the titles or making a string of defences is just not enough. Nowhere near.
So why is Tyson an ATG? He dominated a division as weak as nowadays (no discussion) and was KTFO in his prime to B-level fighter Douglas. After his comeback in 95 he never ever baet someone worth to mention.....
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by Dipper_Brown
No ****in' way.

The ONLY way, and I mean ONLY (pronounced; own-lee) way Wlad can achieve ATG status is if he unify all the titles and become UNDISPUTED HVYWT Champ.

The HVYWT competion is way too lame for him to be even considered an ATG, even if he never loses again in his career.

But that pretty much goes for anybody in this era, if Masakiev somehow unfies the title and is undisputed, is anyone gonna argue that he is not an ATG?
exactly he has to unify the division become undisputed rematch corry sanders....which even if he does win isnt going to get as much credentials as lewis did when he stopped mcCall or rahman as both of them either had a title or were in the elimination stage.

hall of famer maybe atg no way
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

NO.

NO.

NO.

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Old 08-01-2007, 07:54 AM   #25
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by Dipper_Brown
I disagree.


I dont think Vitali is great.

Wlad has shown alot more than VK has. The only thing VK has ever shown in the ring is what face muscles look like under the skin.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:55 AM   #26
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by swedeone
NO.

NO.

NO.

get to the point
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

It's possible. Be active for ~5 more years, unify the titles, beat 3-4 top contenders ... he could be a ATG than.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:58 AM   #28
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by madpup
I think he can, but he needs to win a lot of fights to do it. Something like clean up the current division and beat up and comers like Povetkin, Solis, Haye.
yeah but he is already getting on a bit he should be unified champ already and way into bum of the month tour
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:59 AM   #29
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

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Originally Posted by Deslizer
It's possible. Be active for ~5 more years, unify the titles, beat 3-4 top contenders ... he could be a ATG than.
but he aint young no more he was compared to other fighters in the division but he isnt peak physical stregnth
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Old 08-01-2007, 08:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: CAN Wlad become ATG/Hof'er?

HOF is pretty much guaranteed for Wlad. Every man and his dog gets in there eventually. They add half a dozen names each year - do half a dozen GREAT fighters emerge every year? No, therefore they end up adding fighters that were either pretty good or just well-known.

ATG, I don't know. I think he'll probably crack the top-20.
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