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Old 09-26-2008, 11:53 AM   #16
kickbxn5
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

Speed is power, especially when your opponents don't see the shot coming. Raw power? Ali may have been a 5.5, maybe even a 6, but mostly it was his accumalation of punches that did the job.
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

I think Ali could surprise people when he sat down on his punches to throw full power shots. Most of the time he favored mobility and didnt put his weight into his punches because he was too busy moving.

Look at someone like Trinidad who would alway put his weight on his front foot to be ready to throw power shots versus Ali who wasnt dedicating himself to each shot so he could move more.

Many of his knockouts were not because he was throwing hard but he was connecting very cleanly. His boxing skills allowed him to get very nice flush shots. Its like PBF, everyone knows he isnt a big hitter compared to other guys but if you look at fights like the Gatti fight or Hatton fight, it wasnt his power but the fact that his speed and skills allowed him to land very flush.

If you asked DLH and Winky who hit harder, Hopkins or Trinidad, the would probably be inclined to say Hopkins. We all know Trinidad can hit harder and that is shown in many of Trinidad's highlight reel KO's. But vs DLH and Winky, those two didnt ever get to feel Trinidad's full power because they were good enough boxers to where Trinidad couldnt land fully flush whereas with Hopkins even though he has less power, his skills allowed him to land better shots and they got to feel his punches more.


There were the cases, especially later in his career where Ali did fight more flat footed and throw harder shots. Like in the Frazier and Foreman fights and he seemed to have much better power there compared to his pre-exile days. In Foreman's case, once Foreman was tired and he wasnt a threat anymore, Ali sat on his punches more because he wasnt as worried about moving. The first and last Frazier fights were just wars and they were both going all out and Ali threw more power shots than normal and also got hit alot more than normal because he wasnt moving as much as he did in his younger days.
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
To get a good picture of Ali's power we should look at the times he really put all his power in his punches, which he seldom did.

KO - Williams: One of the premier exhibitions of offensive punching in HW history. Even though Williams was damaged goods there's no doubt about the power and accuracy in those punches and combinations.

KO - Bonavena: That left hook was really hard. Yes, it was in the last round, but Bonavena was one tough customer and that hook led to the first (and only?) KO defeat in his career. Something Frazier's left hook hadn't come close to acccomplish over 20 rounds.

KO - Foreman: We all know about that right hand. Yes, Foreman was exhausted, but he was exhausted at other times as well without being KO'd. He faced some serious bangers in his time, but never was KO'd before or after.

KO-Lyle: An equally deadly right hand. The guy who stood up to the best Shavers's had to offer was sent into queer street by one single right. That's hardly feather fisted.

I would say that Tyson, Lewis, Foreman, the Klitschko bro's, Shavers and a couple of others had clearly better power, but not too many else. I think his power (when he really went all out) was a lot closer to other ATG's like Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Frazier than many think. At his best he was after all 212 well proportioned pounds with possibly the fastest hands of all HW's.
This is a debate going on since the '60s, when, after the first Patterson fight, the cry went up: "The champ can't punch!" I would say it is misleading to compare Ali's power to Dempsey's, Louis', Marciano's or Frazier's. The record bears this out and the reasons are several, including: a) intent b) style c) physicality.

With respect to intent, Ali is on the record saying he never acquiesced to murderous intentions in the ring. On the whole, here he was like Jack Johnson, looking to win on points.

Thus, his style was one of landing point-scoring punches, but not potentially concussive bombs. Mentality here is about as important as was his height and litheness in determining his peculiar pecking, poking, fighting-outside style.

Weight deployed has much to do with power unleashed, as Jack Dempsey teaches us, and in this sense, Ali is enormously restrained: very rarely did he bull into his foe, throwing himself forward with every ounce of poundage and strength, like, say, Frazier did at FOTC. He was simply not a killer. He was too busy thinking about fighting with Allah, for his people and other ideals, none exactly bloodthirsty.

On the other hand, Ali developed amazing timing, responsible for many of his kayoes, such as the rights on Williams (first knockdown), Foreman and Lyle. Timed shots are potential knockdown shots, and thus the answer to Ken Norton's comment that to him Ali's punches were average but he knocked a lot of people out, so he must have been doing something right.

With his edge in endurance, Ali also simply wore many men out.

With respect to pure power, I am confident many, many heavyweights have produced considerably more than Ali, including a host of club fighters and also-rans throughout history, who should never be mentioned in the same breath as the Greatest. But boxing is much more than a Drago psi freak show.

I believe sheer physical makeup, that is, aspects such as bone density, symmetry, and muscle and tendon quality, mean similarly built individuals have different impacts on the Richter scale.

To me, Ali's sheer power is more comparable to Patterson's, Tunney's, Johnson's, Holmes' and Charles', a 7 on a 1-10 scale.
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Old 09-26-2008, 05:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

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Truth is at heavyweight, anyone can hit. All things considered, Ali was not a big puncher at all, but due to his speed, stamina and in general overwhelming of his opponents, he still stopped a lot of them when he was in his prime - about as many as Tyson did.

Even Chris Byrd hurt Tua with bodyshots and Young dropped Foreman. Both are known to be featherfisted, i.e. only punch to score points, not to do damage.

I'd give Ali a 6 or 6.5 for power, but on stopping ability, he'd be an 8 or more.
Ali had a decent right cross. The punch was hard enough to earn respect. I say about a 6.5 is about right.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

It does appear inconsistent ... he ko's Bonavena but could not even drop the often dropped Patterson ... he never staggered Norton in 39 rounds but stopped Lyle ... he never floored Cooper but the iron chinned Liston said he really could hit .... I just am not sure ....
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:44 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

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Originally Posted by he grant
It does appear inconsistent ... he ko's Bonavena but could not even drop the often dropped Patterson ... he never staggered Norton in 39 rounds but stopped Lyle ... he never floored Cooper but the iron chinned Liston said he really could hit .... I just am not sure ....
It was magic, the man was truly special.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

ali's before exile KO ratio was as good as Joe Louis. After exile his KO ratio was a lot worst due to hand problems, timing etc. the foreman KO was due to fatigue. God knows how many big punches george wasted in the 5th. Ali was smart. Plus Foreman was mentally beaten before the KO. The right that got Lyle was good but his stamina wasn't the best. Ali showed his real power v Williams and against Folley. Terrell he relied on speed only so he could take him the distance and show him a lesson he would never forget. I agree that Ali could power punch when he wanted but most of the time he just played with his opponents. But he did have hand problems after exile which didn't help his KO ratio. Precise Timing is the secret to a KO punch e.g. Folley right hand over the jab, Bonavena left hook.
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:12 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

7-10 for me.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:06 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by he grant
...he never staggered Norton in 39 rounds...
He staggered Norton with a right cross in the 7th round of their second fight.

At least I think it was the 7th round. Can't remember.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Patterson and Cooper both said he was probably the weakest puncher they ever fought- and Cooper fought Karl Mildenberger.
Ali made Mildenberger do a somersault over backwards from one right hand check it out,not too shabby for a guy who couldnt hit.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:03 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ali had a decent right cross. The punch was hard enough to earn respect. I say about a 6.5 is about right.
I would agree he rarely put his shoulder power into a punch ,but could get your attention when he came down off his toes.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:46 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

The rights landed on Lyle and Foreman was two of the very hardest punches he threw. They were close to perfectly leveraged, very, very fast and had ca 220 pounds behind them. Pure physics stipulates that that makes for a very hard punch.
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:51 AM   #28
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

How many times has this topic been posted..... Ali was not a big puncher probably the least powerful of all the great heavy weights. Ali fans get over it he was not a puncher.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

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Originally Posted by groove
ali's before exile KO ratio was as good as Joe Louis.
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Old 09-27-2008, 08:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: Is Ali's Power overlooked?

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Originally Posted by True Writer
How many times has this topic been posted..... Ali was not a big puncher probably the least powerful of all the great heavy weights. Ali fans get over it he was not a puncher.
Marciano, Louis, Depmsey etc definitely threw harder punches on average than Ali. But that was mainly because Ali seldom sat on his punches, that he preferred to throw many light punches while moving. I don't think Ali's punches necissarily was lighter when he reallly put 100% behind them.

Since the power behind a punch consist of its weight and velocity, it seems very improbable that a 185 lbs guy punches harder than a 215 lbs guy with faster hands if both put their whole body behind their punches. And when Ali really sat on his punches they were very well leveraged.
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