Hector "macho" Camacho, What If!

[cuco64]

He Would Have Steer Away From The Drugs, He Was Something Special Early In His Career,but He Trew It All Away By Using Drugs And Party Hard:

[sweet_scientist]

As I said in the general forum:

Hector Camacho lacked the mettle to be a great fighter. It wasn't the drugs that stopped him being great, although they surely didn't help.

People say he changed his style after the Rosario fight, but I think that misses the point of what really occurred. Camacho got hit and found out that he didn't like it, but he didn't change after the Rosario fight.

What happened is his lack of willingness to get hit and fight back got exposed. It was something latent in Camacho all along, he just never got hit for us all to see what became of him when he did.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by sweet_scientist
As I said in the general forum:

Hector Camacho lacked the mettle to be a great fighter. It wasn't the drugs that stopped him being great, although they surely didn't help.

People say he changed his style after the Rosario fight, but I think that misses the point of what really occurred. Camacho got hit and found out that he didn't like it, but he didn't change after the Rosario fight.

What happened is his lack of willingness to get hit and fight back got exposed. It was something latent in Camacho all along, he just never got hit for us all to see what became of him when he did.

That is pretty much the case. Larry Merchant has always made a comment similar to the effect that an undefeated often fighter fights as though that fighter doesn't know how to lose. Whether official or not, Macho knew how to lose after Rosario.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by cuco64

He Would Have Steer Away From The Drugs, He Was Something Special Early In His Career,but He Trew It All Away By Using Drugs And Party Hard:

Considering that he won world titles all the way up to 160 it shouldn't surprise anyone that he would have been even more successful. Look at the way he came on in the leonard fight, that shows he has some real fight in him. In similar fashion he easily outboxed the other olympic star Howard Davis jr. no one else ever handed him that kind of loss. Because of his speed and skills, his potential was unlimited. More titles were definitely in his future

[salsanchezfan]

.................I keep wondering how the comments above don't weigh into the argument that the Rosario fight DID change him.

If in fact that bout exposed certain defeatist tendencies in him (that, by extension, continued to play out the rest of his career) wouldn't it be fair to say that's a pretty significant change?

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

.................I keep wondering how the comments above don't weigh into the argument that the Rosario fight DID change him.

If in fact that bout exposed certain defeatist tendencies in him (that, by extension, continued to play out the rest of his career) wouldn't it be fair to say that's a pretty significant change?

I don't think so Sal.

To take an analogy, it's like saying Norris developed a weak chin when he fought Jackson - no, Norris ALWAYS had a weak chin. Jackson simply revealed it.

Likewise, Camacho never had the warrior spirit to respond when really challenged. Rosario revealed that, he didn't create it. It's something to do with Camacho's character and constitution, not with Rosario.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

.................I keep wondering how the comments above don't weigh into the argument that the Rosario fight DID change him.

If in fact that bout exposed certain defeatist tendencies in him (that, by extension, continued to play out the rest of his career) wouldn't it be fair to say that's a pretty significant change?

Maybe it does, based on his continuing legal issues, in his 40's.

[rekcutnevets]

Originally posted by salsanchezfan
.................I keep wondering how the comments above don't weigh into the argument that the Rosario fight DID change him.

Wonder no more in regards to my opinion. I believe that the Rosario signified Camacho's last stand, so to speak. I think that Rosario would have won a very clear decision if given the chance for a rematch.

[redrooster]

I think it's just a rumour that caught on, no doubt spread by John Thomas who hates him. Just remember how many people hate him because of the fact that he's still never been stopped. This really burns people up!

I won't even mention what he did to Ray Leonard

Anyways, the real Hector was back when he faced off with Howard Davis. It was one of his better performances

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

I don't think so Sal.

To take an analogy, it's like saying Norris developed a weak chin when he fought Jackson - no, Norris ALWAYS had a weak chin. Jackson simply revealed it.

Likewise, Camacho never had the warrior spirit to respond when really challenged. Rosario revealed that, he didn't create it. It's something to do with Camacho's character and constitution, not with Rosario.

...............I agree completely that it had more to do with his constitution and character; I'd even go so far as to agree that Rosario merely exposed this flaw. But...........he WAS the guy that did it, and Camacho truly wasn't the same after that. Think of how he looked against somewhat similar fighters at different point as a lightweight, so as not to get too far out of his prime. Makes a better comparison.

Ramirez and Boza. Two bangers, both slow, both lefties, neither with what you would call a true home run punch, but good power for both. Camacho was on his horse both fights, but he fought with so much more zeal and enthusiasm (dare I say it, aplomb) against Ramirez that it was as if he'd aged ten years between the fights, when in fact it was only one. Against Boza, he ran and held and held some more and then he ran, fought a totally negative fight. Against Ramirez he was careful, but masterful.

I still see that as a big change.

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by birddog

Maybe it does, based on his continuing legal issues, in his 40's.

.............Hmmmm.......


Cop: Mr. Camacho, may I ask why you are in possession of this rather sizable bag of cocaine?


Hector: Did you not SEE that right hand in '86???

[cuco64]

The only good thing camacho got to brag about,is that he was never KO in his losses,taking a beating from Chavez and DLH and then after the fight boasting about it: he got a gift against the tazmanian devil paziensa & duran!

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

...............I agree completely that it had more to do with his constitution and character; I'd even go so far as to agree that Rosario merely exposed this flaw. But...........he WAS the guy that did it, and Camacho truly wasn't the same after that. Think of how he looked against somewhat similar fighters at different point as a lightweight, so as not to get too far out of his prime. Makes a better comparison.

Ramirez and Boza. Two bangers, both slow, both lefties, neither with what you would call a true home run punch, but good power for both. Camacho was on his horse both fights, but he fought with so much more zeal and enthusiasm (dare I say it, aplomb) against Ramirez that it was as if he'd aged ten years between the fights, when in fact it was only one. Against Boza, he ran and held and held some more and then he ran, fought a totally negative fight. Against Ramirez he was careful, but masterful.

I still see that as a big change.

That's a good counterpoint, but I'm not sure if I agree with it's implications. I agree that he looked a different level of fighter against Boza than he did against Ramirez, but I felt he fought cautious in both fights after bolting out of the gates at the start. He did look a level or two better against Ramirez, but I don't think he fought any more offensively against Ramirez.

Could it possibly be that he simply didn't train as hard for Boza as he did for Ramirez, and simply went through the motions after getting an early lead?

I think Camacho got hyped early in his career as a super offensive machine because he took care of a doting Limon, and knocked out a few other non-descript guys, but people called it way early. As far as I'm concerned, up til the time he faced Rosario, he had faced only one live guy I'd classify as a very good, or even a good figher, Jose Luis Ramirez.

I don't really think there is that much to glean from say looking at Camacho against Ramirez and say looking at him against Boza, and Baltazar and similar fairly slow, solid hitters, other than to say that Camacho looked somewhat sharper against Ramirez. Stylistically though, he pretty much fought the same way against Ramirez as he did against Boza and Baltazar, and with more or less similar results.

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

That's a good counterpoint, but I'm not sure if I agree with it's implications. I agree that he looked a different level of fighter against Boza than he did against Ramirez, but I felt he fought cautious in both fights after bolting out of the gates at the start. He did look a level or two better against Ramirez, but I don't think he fought any more offensively against Ramirez.

Could it possibly be that he simply didn't train as hard for Boza as he did for Ramirez, and simply went through the motions after getting an early lead?

I think Camacho got hyped early in his career as a super offensive machine because he took care of a doting Limon, and knocked out a few other non-descript guys, but people called it way early. As far as I'm concerned, up til the time he faced Rosario, he had faced only one live guy I'd classify as a very good, or even a good figher, Jose Luis Ramirez.

I don't really think there is that much to glean from say looking at Camacho against Ramirez and say looking at him against Boza, and Baltazar and similar fairly slow, solid hitters, other than to say that Camacho looked somewhat sharper against Ramirez. Stylistically though, he pretty much fought the same way against Boza and Baltazar, and with more or less similar results.

...........I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Camacho was always backing up and circling, he never fought like an offensive machine, but the nature of that defensive style was markedly different. I agree they hyped him far more as a complete fighter than he could ever have dreamed of being.

The difference lies in his total refusal after Rosario to take any sort of risk. I would agree with anyone who says that has as much to do with the now rarified air he found himself in after being called the best lightweight in the world; stopping Louis Loy is one thing, stopping Rosario or even a dilapidated Boza is another, but those easy initial opponents filled his insecure and immature mind with the idea that he was indeed Superman. It took the Rosario fight for him to realize that wasn't the case, but he never fought with the same confidence and sense of well-being he had before that. That sudden realization manifested itself in no small way the rest of the way out for him.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

.............Hmmmm.......


Cop: Mr. Camacho, may I ask why you are in possession of this rather sizable bag of cocaine?


Hector: Did you not SEE that right hand in '86???

What Radios, and what gal did I punch

Yeah something is wrong with Macho man

He was always one of those guys you wanted to see just get beaten. The whole clown act he had going.