I think Shavers had more going for him...

[Russell]

Than some give him credit for.

When he was on his A-Game he was pretty damned impressive. When he fought Norton he talked about finally, after years on end, getting his manager off his back, which was a boon to Shaver's. He talked about how he had trained hard for 9 weeks for the Norton fight too, and it showed.

He showed a pretty nice, rapid jab to force Norton backwards to where he could bomb him out of there. Nice uppercuts too, just like he finished Ellis off with.

Any other examples of Shavers being more than a slugger? Anything in that vein?

[mr. magoo]

Although it was a defeat, the Holmes fights were both impressive efforts for Shavers. To this day, no one can seem to get over how Holmes got up off the canvas in their second meeting.

[Russell]

Hah... Yeah. Holmes was definitely one of those guys who's ability to recover was better than their chin.

What do you think he put out there in the Holmes fights that was impressive?

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Russell

Hah... Yeah. Holmes was definitely one of those guys who's ability to recover was better than their chin.

What do you think he put out there in the Holmes fights that was impressive?

Even though he wasn't known for great lateral movement or a good defense, Shavers still managed to penetrate through the barrier of a prime Holmes jab. This is something that most fighters couldn't do, especially when Larry was at his best. Shavers was also the first, to really expose Larry's weakness for being prone to getting hit with rights ( at least in the pros. ) I have no way of knowing, but I suspect that future contenders looked at tapes of these fights, and tried to keep it in mind while preparing to meet Holmes. What's more, Earnie exploded some myths about his stamina and abilty to be effective in the later rounds of a 12 or 15 round fight.

[Russell]

Good stuff, thanks, magoo.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Russell

Good stuff, thanks, magoo.

No prob

[Unforgiven]

I dont buy in that stuff about Shavers having "nothing but a big punch" either.

Shavers had some decent skills, decent stance, decent defense.

Of course, against a prime Larry Holmes in a state of exhaustion, Shavers looks crude.
Holmes was a superior boxer, of course. And Shavers' problem was often stamina issues, and when he got gassed he got reckless.

I've seen a lot of Shavers fights, and he comes out in a solid crouch, slips punches, leads with the left, counters his opponent, picks his shots.
He's no Sugar Ray, but he's an educated pro. He's not some buffoon throwing wild haymakers.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Although it was a defeat, the Holmes fights were both impressive efforts for Shavers. To this day, no one can seem to get over how Holmes got up off the canvas in their second meeting.

What, you mean like losing every single round except for the one he knocked Holmes down in?

[Mendoza]

Sometimes a fighter gets a negative tag, and his reputation overshadows his other positive abilities in the ring. Ernie had a shaky chin, he cut, and sometimes had stamina related issues. Other times, he could fight 15 rounds at a good pace. So his stamina really was not that bad. And while he was Ko’d by Lyle and Foreman early, those two were good punchers. Quarry has a 1st round TKO over Shavers, but I think the stoppage was a pre-mature. Outside of this, it took a while to stop a prime Shavers. IMO, Shavers might have deserved the nod over Ali in 1977. Watch the fight. Ali was close to out, and only his acting abilities in the ring saved him. It’s true. Even Ali said he has no memory of the fight past the second round. When I watch any Shavers fights, the one thing that stands out is Shavers did not need to land flush to hurt his man. He had special power.

Some of the under rated things about Shavers was his hand speed and punch variety. If you haven’t seen much of Shavers before, you’ll be impressed for relatively fast hands for a puncher, and a nice punch variety, which includes a fight ending uppercut, and brutal body shots.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

And while he was Ko’d by Lyle and Foreman early, those two were good punchers. Quarry has a 1st round TKO over Shavers, but I think the stoppage was a pre-mature.

You must really hate Shavers if you wanted that fight to continue.
Quarry was pummeling Shavers for literally an entire minute while Shavers was doing a hurt-Frank Bruno imitation on the ropes. Shavers threw a grand total of three punches during that time and was completly out. He got 10 seconds to recover but still did nothing. The stoppage was fine.

Quarry and Lyle were big punchers, but then again, so were Liston and Johansson, but that doesn't stop anyone from saying Patterson had a weak chin. Cobb, Mercado, Holmes and Stallings were not really great punchers, by the way.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

What, you mean like losing every single round except for the one he knocked Holmes down in?

No,

I mean showing that he was capable of going rounds with, and dropping a prime champion, who would later be regarded as one of the greatest of all time. Shavers met Holmes twice, and hurt Larry in both fights. He was a worthy contender.

[mr. magoo]

Cobb, Mercado, Holmes and Stallings were not really great punchers, by the way.

I don't think that this is an area of major concern, nor even great relevance for that matter. Shavers was past his prime against Cobb and Mercado, and the " Tex " fight, was more of a result of being gassed after leading Cobb for 8 rounds, ( I'll take your word for it that you've seen it. ) Holmes was a remarkably talented champion in the prime of his career, yet Earnie went distance in the first fight, and hurt him significantly in the second ( I'm also guessing you saw these. ) Lastly, losing to Bob Stallings is not exactly an attractive career highlight, but consider this. Between 1969 and 1975, Shavers fought something like 60 bouts. When you fight on average, perhaps 10+ times per year, someones bound to catch you on an off night once in a while.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

You must really hate Shavers if you wanted that fight to continue.
Quarry was pummeling Shavers for literally an entire minute while Shavers was doing a hurt-Frank Bruno imitation on the ropes. Shavers threw a grand total of three punches during that time and was completly out. He got 10 seconds to recover but still did nothing. The stoppage was fine.

Quarry and Lyle were big punchers, but then again, so were Liston and Johansson, but that doesn't stop anyone from saying Patterson had a weak chin. Cobb, Mercado, Holmes and Stallings were not really great punchers, by the way.

It was only round one. Shavers was on his feet, and blocking many shots. If I'm the ref I let the match go on a bit longer, at least until round two or I see Shavers visibly hurt.

Quarry was a big puncher? Not in my book.

[Street Lethal]

I thought the Quarry-Shavers fight was ended too early. Shaver's didn't look hurt to me. He was regrouping.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

It was only round one. Shavers was on his feet, and blocking many shots. If I'm the ref I let the match go on a bit longer, at least until round two or I see Shavers visibly hurt.

Quarry was a big puncher? Not in my book.

You are right, Quarry was not a big puncher. But what i meant was that he could hit for sure. A level above Holmes in that sense.

I strongly disagree about the Shavers fight being stopped prematurely. Look at how he almost fell down when taking a step back. He was swaying like a tree in the wind. He may have been blocking punches, but he also took a lot of them and he was doing absolutely nothing to change that by staying on the ropes and throwing next to nothing in return.