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Old 10-19-2008, 04:07 AM   #31
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Old 10-19-2008, 04:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Russell
Honestly, you can't discredit Pavlik and still speak positively of Hopkin's at the same time. Kind of difficult considering Pavlik nearly killed Taylor in there.

That's the entire point too. In Pavlik's "short time" he managed that, twice. Zertuche, Lockett, Abraham... Not great wins but he wiped his ass with all of them, and once again, did so in a short peroid of time.
I think I can.

Just got to put things into perspective..This is a very good win but how it will impact Nard alltime position remains to be seen because Kelly is still pretty much in the early stages of his career.

Pav never fought Abraham and nearly lost to Taylor in the 2nd fight. I dont think his resume is all that solid yet.
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:57 AM   #33
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by WhataRock
I think I can.

Just got to put things into perspective..This is a very good win but how it will impact Nard alltime position remains to be seen because Kelly is still pretty much in the early stages of his career.
It's obviously going to impact well regardless because Pav early career or not has already done some impressive things incoluding beating the man that "beat" Hopkins and took his title. Even if he does nothing more there are a handful of achievements that can't be taken away from him.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
EASILY top 50. He went undefeated and reigned over the middleweight division for over a decade, won the light heavyweight title at over 40 years of age, and, now well on the darker side of 40, has beaten two of boxing's pound-for-pound elites (Wright and Pavlik), and arguably beat the man who many consider world's pound-for-pound #1 (Calzaghe). Aside from Archie Moore, Hopkins is the best over-40 fighter in the history of professional boxing. His sum career resume (wins over De La Hoya, Trinidad, Tarver, Wright, Pavlik, etc.) is outstanding, his longevity is nigh unheard of, and the only clear-cut loss of his entire career was to a prime Roy Jones Jr.; if he were a judges'-darling like an Ali, he could be 54-1 right now. Hopkins may be the greatest fighter of his generation, and is without the slightest doubt one of the top 50 of the gloved era, in my estimation.
That sums up all pretty well.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:09 AM   #35
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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You just had to go back and edit and add to that didn't ya! Full unbridled credit was just too difficult!

I've seen plenty of peeps still claiming Hopkins did beat him actually. Haven't watched it all myself, but obviously it is a damn close and competitive fight.
That fight was so close I with there still would be no decision fights. I had it for Hopkins 114-113 but canīt mock about Joe C. getting the win. No clear cut winner.
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Loewe
That fight was so close I with there still would be no decision fights. I had it for Hopkins 114-113 but canīt mock about Joe C. getting the win. No clear cut winner.
Ok, cheers.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I think he was top 50 already. Right now, I'd say Top 40. It was an amazing performance by Hopkins last night. Almost too good because he completely exposed Pavlik. What Pavlik does in the rest of his career will determine how big this win is. Still, it's a remarkable effort. He took away Pavlik's jab. Pavlik was afraid to throw it with conviction because he knew he'd get cracked in return. He looked completely lost and demoralized. Very similar to the Hopkins-Tarver fight.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:46 AM   #38
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

Hopkins is 1 of the greatest ever now for me, definately top20, hes the Archie Moore of his generation and ranks above middleweights like Monzon and Hagler.

**** it Hopkins is greater than comparitively 1D pressure fighters like Henry Armstrong and Chavez
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:48 AM   #39
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

Wasn't SuzieQ talking up Pavlik as if he was all that?

The writing was on the wall that this was a bad style match up for Pavlik, which many intelligent fans saw.

Lots of people were impressed with Pavlik's punching power and work rate, but they failed to acknowledge that he was SLOW as molasses at 160 and had bad defense. So basically he put on 10 pounds and came in even slower of hand and foot at 170 and carried his bad defense with him. They aslo failed to acknowledge that Bernard has a ROCK chin and being the more naturally adjusted to the weight, he'd be able to take anything Pavlik lands anyway.

Another thing overlooked was that Jermain Taylor, with no head movement, was still able to box on just about even terms with Pavlik in the rematch, which should have sent a warning signal that Pavlik ain't that great of a boxer.

And unless you think I'm talking out my ass through hindsight, I DID pick Hopkins to win the fight, though I thought it would be somewhat closer than the whitewash it became. Credit to Hopkins for doing everything he could do right.

Pavlik can still do good things at 160, but he needs to be paired with the right kind of fighter. The type that has minimal head movement and defensive ability and is there to be hit, doesn't use much of the ring and is willing to trade. Pavlik has strong punches, a great will to win and the mettle of a champion. Put him in there with a Sumbu Kalambay type though, and he gets shut out, heck even a Sweet Reggie Johnson will do him easy imo.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:51 AM   #40
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Hopkins greatness was "cemented" a long time ago. He's now adding to it.
I agree. I did not see the match, but I am very surprised by a wide decison win for Hopkins. What happened here? Did Hopkins hurt Pavlik and make him gun shy?

I have Hopkins in my top 10 at middle. If I had a top 50 p4p, Hopkins would make the cut.
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:55 AM   #41
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

It was pretty ridiculous that Pavlik was so heavily favoured in this fight. I mean, who had he fought that was anywhere NEAR as cagey as Hopkins to make us believe he could handle a defensive master?
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Old 10-19-2008, 08:59 AM   #42
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I agree. I did not see the match, but I am very surprised by a wide decison win for Hopkins. What happened here? Did Hopkins hurt Pavlik and make him gun shy?

I have Hopkins in my top 10 at middle. If I had a top 50 p4p, Hopkins would make the cut.
Hopkins buzzed him a little VERY early and was TOTALLY dominant. He was faster, way sharper, and even outworked Pavlik. The gap in skill was huge, with Hopkins fighting the perfect tactical fight. His punching accuracy was spot on. Just an absolute schooling, and Pavlik had plenty of respect for his power and sharpness. Even thru the end rounds when Pav needed a KO to win he couldn't pick it up. Hopkins had him covered in all facets and made him pay many times he let his hands go.
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:14 AM   #43
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Wasn't SuzieQ talking up Pavlik as if he was all that?

The writing was on the wall that this was a bad style match up for Pavlik, which many intelligent fans saw.

Lots of people were impressed with Pavlik's punching power and work rate, but they failed to acknowledge that he was SLOW as molasses at 160 and had bad defense. So basically he put on 10 pounds and came in even slower of hand and foot at 170 and carried his bad defense with him. They aslo failed to acknowledge that Bernard has a ROCK chin and being the more naturally adjusted to the weight, he'd be able to take anything Pavlik lands anyway.

Another thing overlooked was that Jermain Taylor, with no head movement, was still able to box on just about even terms with Pavlik in the rematch, which should have sent a warning signal that Pavlik ain't that great of a boxer.

And unless you think I'm talking out my ass through hindsight, I DID pick Hopkins to win the fight, though I thought it would be somewhat closer than the whitewash it became. Credit to Hopkins for doing everything he could do right.

Pavlik can still do good things at 160, but he needs to be paired with the right kind of fighter. The type that has minimal head movement and defensive ability and is there to be hit, doesn't use much of the ring and is willing to trade. Pavlik has strong punches, a great will to win and the mettle of a champion. Put him in there with a Sumbu Kalambay type though, and he gets shut out, heck even a Sweet Reggie Johnson will do him easy imo.
I agree with most of that but most people including me thought that Hopkins' age would hurt him in there, that he would not have the stamina to cope with Pavlik's workrate. He proved me wrong tonight like everytime I thought he would lose. Still got some virtual cash from the fight since I betted on Hopkins
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Wasn't SuzieQ talking up Pavlik as if he was all that?.
Actually all of the Classic forum were over Pavlik like a rash including Suzie Q and MEndoza, but you all made about 3-5 threads about him being the next great middleweight after Locket.

In fairness he is the man at 160 and only Abraham and Williams looks likely to challenge him
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
It was pretty ridiculous that Pavlik was so heavily favoured in this fight. I mean, who had he fought that was anywhere NEAR as cagey as Hopkins to make us believe he could handle a defensive master?
I picked Pavlik solely because I though Hopkins had lost his legs and could only throw 10 shots a round, while Pavlik throws 90 shots a round.
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