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Old 10-19-2008, 09:24 AM   #46
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I agree. I did not see the match, but I am very surprised by a wide decison win for Hopkins. What happened here? Did Hopkins hurt Pavlik and make him gun shy?

I have Hopkins in my top 10 at middle. If I had a top 50 p4p, Hopkins would make the cut.
He took his jab away using backward motion, used angles. He did hurt him in round 3 and I think 7 (could have been and 12.

I had Hopkins winning every round, 2 rounds to Pavlik is generous. It was a masterclass for a 43yo
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:39 AM   #47
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Actually all of the Classic forum were over Pavlik like a rash including Suzie Q and MEndoza, but you all made about 3-5 threads about him being the next great middleweight after Locket.

In fairness he is the man at 160 and only Abraham and Williams looks likely to challenge him
Not me mate, I've always been suspect about Pavlik and his limitations.

Here are my thoughts prior to the fight:

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I picked Pavlik solely because I though Hopkins had lost his legs and could only throw 10 shots a round, while Pavlik throws 90 shots a round.
I myself thought that Pavlik's workrate would keep him in the fight, but it's amazing what a moving target can do to bring down a fighter's punch output. A lesson we should not forget.
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:54 AM   #48
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Not me mate, I've always been suspect about Pavlik and his limitations.

Here are my thoughts prior to the fight:

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I myself thought that Pavlik's workrate would keep him in the fight, but it's amazing what a moving target can do to bring down a fighter's punch output. A lesson we should not forget.
I initially saw Pavlik as limited and actually had him losing to Taylor 7-5 in the rematch. Sometimes when you hear nothing but good stuff from boxing fans you start to question your eyes and look for the strengths ignoring the weaknesses.

In Pavlik's defense that was a masterful performance and if he stayed at 160 his none stop attack and solid tight 1-2 would have been enough to dominate for a long time

Hopkins can clearly throw more per round against an open target, and I didn't think he could be that active anymore.

But remember if Hopkins was throwing 10 shots a round he would have lost a very close decision, I also saw Pavlik being more affective at jabbing and working the body, which I thought would happen
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:55 AM   #49
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I just want to add that Hopkins does impress me a lot. It seems that every time I mention him I have something negative to say and I come off looking the cunt.

He deserves massive credit for continuing to do what he does. I want to emphasise that.

I think some of his fans go overboard (whose fans don't?) and make more of him that what he is (and what he was in his prime) and that makes me a bit counterattacking but one can't deny the excellent level he has maintained for many, many years. On the longevity criterion, he gets an A+ from me
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Old 10-19-2008, 09:59 AM   #50
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
I initially saw Pavlik as limited and actually had him losing to Taylor 7-5 in the rematch. Sometimes when you hear nothing but good stuff from boxing fans you start to question your eyes and look for the strengths ignoring the weaknesses.

In Pavlik's defense that was a masterful performance and if he stayed at 160 his none stop attack and solid tight 1-2 would have been enough to dominate for a long time

Hopkins can clearly throw more per round against an open target, and I didn't think he could be that active anymore.

But remember if Hopkins was throwing 10 shots a round he would have lost a very close decision, I also saw Pavlik being more affective at jabbing and working the body, which I thought would happen
It was a very similar performance to the Tarver fight.

At 160 I think Hopkins was fighting a little drained against Jermain and was probably intimidated by Taylor's speed so he fought cautious (twice) but when he moved to lightheavy and whipped Tarver it was obvious that he could still let his hands go.

In his last couple of fights he's dealt with some cagey customers in Winky and Joe, so he was a little more circumspect, but he was out and out hitting the bag tonight
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:38 AM   #51
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

He's now "cemented" in my top 50 as well. Great stuff last night from the old master, as clueless as Pavlik was.
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Old 10-19-2008, 11:07 AM   #52
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I don't do lists usually. But I can't see how Hopkins is at least 20 places behind someone like Hagler. When looking at their careers Hopkins surely has credentials as impressive as Hagler. I can't see where Hagler's reign of 12 defenses and the quality he fought outdoes Hopkins' resume, longevity, moving up in weight, etc, by a far distance.

This isn't who's the greatest middleweight, but 'pound for pound'. Hagler was taken the distance by Duran when close to his prime and was beaten by Leonard, although controversially. And Hagler walked away from the sport after losing to Leonard. Hopkins' back to back defeats to Taylor at 40 would have been enough for many to walk away.

I just can't see how Hagler can be rated above Hopkins when weighing everything up and balancing things out across the board.
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Old 10-19-2008, 11:51 AM   #53
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

Two consecutive weekends, one old, excellent fighter is the underdog because of age against a younger opponent, and on both occasions, the older fighter not just won but completely outclassed his opponent. Fighters age much slower these days than fifty years ago, when you typically were washed up by 30.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:06 PM   #54
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I think that Hopkins now clearly rates above Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler.

Yes I said it.

Like with many great champions late in their careers his oponents are still active and adding to their own legacies. This in will raise Hopkins currency further.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:15 PM   #55
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally posted by Robbi
I don't do lists usually. But I can't see how Hopkins is at least 20 places behind someone like Hagler. When looking at their careers Hopkins surely has credentials as impressive as Hagler. I can't see where Hagler's reign of 12 defenses and the quality he fought outdoes Hopkins' resume, longevity, moving up in weight, etc, by a far distance.

This isn't who's the greatest middleweight, but 'pound for pound'. Hagler was taken the distance by Duran when close to his prime and was beaten by Leonard, although controversially. And Hagler walked away from the sport after losing to Leonard. Hopkins' back to back defeats to Taylor at 40 would have been enough for many to walk away.

I just can't see how Hagler can be rated above Hopkins when weighing everything up and balancing things out across the board.
I agree with everything here.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:24 PM   #56
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
I don't do lists usually. But I can't see how Hopkins is at least 20 places behind someone like Hagler. When looking at their careers Hopkins surely has credentials as impressive as Hagler. I can't see where Hagler's reign of 12 defenses and the quality he fought outdoes Hopkins' resume, longevity, moving up in weight, etc, by a far distance.

This isn't who's the greatest middleweight, but 'pound for pound'. Hagler was taken the distance by Duran when close to his prime and was beaten by Leonard, although controversially. And Hagler walked away from the sport after losing to Leonard. Hopkins' back to back defeats to Taylor at 40 would have been enough for many to walk away.

I just can't see how Hagler can be rated above Hopkins when weighing everything up and balancing things out across the board.
Agreed, but I'd go further and rate him above Hagler, better skills, more variety, more strings to his bow and in his prime every bit as good in the trenches. Hagler's great but Hopkins is greater
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:28 PM   #57
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
I just can't see how Hagler can be rated above Hopkins when weighing everything up and balancing things out across the board.
We are in the presence of greatness gentlemen.

Dont wait twenty years to fully apreciate it.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:32 PM   #58
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

So where the Calzaghe rank now given that he beat Hopkins?

Where does he rank if he beats Jones, also?
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #59
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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So where the Calzaghe rank now given that he beat Hopkins?

Where does he rank if he beats Jones, also?
Obviously the curency of his win over Hopkins has gone up considerably.

I would not give him much aditional credit for beating Jones because Jones is shot.
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Old 10-19-2008, 12:38 PM   #60
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Seamus
So where the Calzaghe rank now given that he beat Hopkins?

Where does he rank if he beats Jones, also?
Well, I didn´t think he won but that he had such a close fight with a man like Hopkins elevates his standing quite a bit. Shows what he is capable of. He is not an atg outside of smw at the moment but he also isn´t finished yet.

For Hopkins, I think he should either fight the winner of Calzaghe-Jones or Jermain Taylor at 170 - or he should retire.
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