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Old 10-19-2008, 01:13 PM   #61
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Seamus
So where the Calzaghe rank now given that he beat Hopkins?

Where does he rank if he beats Jones, also?
It increases the value of the win but it was still a 43yo Hopkins and I and many had Hopkins winning due to him landing better cleaner punches and Joe missing most of his work.

Calazage's resume is underrated BUT it is weak

Incidently Calazage has avoided allot of prime challengers, Pavlik recently, Glen Johnson, Mundine, Tarver, Vanderpool, Echols, Reid Rematch (it was a disputed SD). He fought Lacy and Kessler which are massive wins and now underrated BUT prior to them it was all ex-champs

Interestingly Calazage beat man who beat all of these fighters but it doesnt mean he beats them and it doesnt change the fact he didnt step up until Lacy in 2006

People say he ducked Otke/Beyer, I'd say it was the other way round but he didn't make these fights either

Calazage is hard to rank but in this era hes a little below Jones Jr, Hopkins, Toney in the 160-168 range
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:38 PM   #62
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
People say he ducked Otke/Beyer, I'd say it was the other way round but he didn't make these fights either
Neither Calzaghe nor Beyer ducked each other. Beyer winning and losing the title pretty much made that impossible since both also had to fight mandatories.
Ottke-Calzaghe is Europe´s Hopkins-Jones II. Both are to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Calazage is hard to rank but in this era hes a little below Jones Jr, Hopkins, Toney in the 160-168 range
All four are atgs there, Hopkins is one of the elite there while the others are not.
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:45 PM   #63
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by janitor
I think that Hopkins now clearly rates above Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler.

Yes I said it.

Like with many great champions late in their careers his oponents are still active and adding to their own legacies. This in will raise Hopkins currency further.

Clearly above Monzon? I think you could argue it, but "clearly"? It would basically mean he'd be a lock for the #1 middleweight of all time like Ali and Louis are for the top2 at HW.
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:45 PM   #64
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Loewe
1. Neither Calzaghe nor Beyer ducked each other. Beyer winning and losing the title pretty much made that impossible since both also had to fight mandatories.
Ottke-Calzaghe is Europe´s Hopkins-Jones II. Both are to blame

2. All four are atgs there, Hopkins is one of the elite there while the others are not.
1. Calazage only had mandatory in about 8years

2. Well Jones beat Hopkins comprehensively, Yet hes not elite and Hops is?

Jones =top10 of all time, Hopkins=top20
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Old 10-19-2008, 01:50 PM   #65
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
1. Calazage only had mandatory in about 8years

2. Well Jones beat Hopkins comprehensively, Yet hes not elite and Hops is?

Jones =top10 of all time, Hopkins=top20
I said Jones is not elite between 160 and 168. He did not enough there to be. If we add 175 than he is. I don´t do lists anymore but both are atgs.
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:01 PM   #66
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Clearly above Monzon? I think you could argue it, but "clearly"? It would basically mean he'd be a lock for the #1 middleweight of all time like Ali and Louis are for the top2 at HW.
No he is still behind Greb and Fitzsimmons and possibly Walker.

He is certainly the best middleweight of the postwar era.
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:06 PM   #67
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by janitor
No he is still behind Greb and Fitzsimmons and possibly Walker.

He is certainly the best middleweight of the postwar era.
You take above weight bouts into consideration when you determine the standing of fighters at a certain weight?
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:16 PM   #68
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I don't, but I still rate Hopkins at #5 all time at 160lbs.

In a p4p sense, the impact of this victory has yet to be determined, but based on the one-sided nature of the fight, and the fact that I already had Hopkins well within my Top 40, I could easily see him being slotted into my Top 25. He's this generation's Archie Moore, and fighting that well for that long has to be taken into consideration when rating the achievements of fighters.
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:21 PM   #69
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

hes 25 in my book..no less
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:25 PM   #70
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

Hopkins is above jones in all time great status..I dont remember Hopkins bein iced by Johnson or Tarver...Roy has a win over hopkins but hopkins has done far more over the years,Better wins over better opponents at this point sorry
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Old 10-19-2008, 02:52 PM   #71
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I think that Hopkins now clearly rates above Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler.

Yes I said it.

Like with many great champions late in their careers his oponents are still active and adding to their own legacies. This in will raise Hopkins currency further.
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Old 10-19-2008, 03:33 PM   #72
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Loewe
You take above weight bouts into consideration when you determine the standing of fighters at a certain weight?
Yes.

It is the least bad of all the options.
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:02 PM   #73
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by Rui
Does he climb into your top 50? Not only did he defeat the 4-1 favorite in Pavlik, but I had him winning every single round. A victory even more impressive than Hopkins' knockout over Trinidad in my opinion.
He makes my 50 ,you can't knock a man at nearly 44 beating a champion,even if it was at catchweight,he goes up in my estimation.
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:08 PM   #74
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Hopkins greatness was "cemented" a long time ago. He's now adding to it.
Exactly! If he's adding to his greatness, then his place among the great can only elevate. If he's adding to his greatness, then it can only be enhanced!

Simply put, he's a great, a great fighter. Quite possibly, the most dedicated & disciplined fighter in history, especially when you think he's 43 years of age!
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Old 10-19-2008, 04:37 PM   #75
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Default Re: So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

I would add that there are a few respected historians out there who have argued that Hopkins is a product of media hype and not a true great.

I hope they will start to review this position.
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