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Old 08-26-2007, 01:14 AM   #1
Russell
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Default Taking a punch...

How much is in the conditioning and how much is a state of mind?

Is there a 50/50 split between the two?

Is it any different with body attacks?

Can you be completely, as Chuvalo said he was, mentally invulnerable and therefore the same physically?

Can you condition yourself to take punches that should kill others, like Hagler did?
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
How much is in the conditioning and how much is a state of mind?

Is there a 50/50 split between the two?

Is it any different with body attacks?

Can you be completely, as Chuvalo said he was, mentally invulnerable and therefore the same physically?

Can you condition yourself to take punches that should kill others, like Hagler did?
To me taking a good punch is just a matter of the person getting hit being able to take it or not.....Some can and some cant...But you can strengthen your neck to absord the shock better.........As far as body shots sit ups work wonders.......
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Old 08-26-2007, 07:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
How much is in the conditioning and how much is a state of mind?

Is there a 50/50 split between the two?

Is it any different with body attacks?

Can you be completely, as Chuvalo said he was, mentally invulnerable and therefore the same physically?

Can you condition yourself to take punches that should kill others, like Hagler did?
LaMotta emphasized that he put himself into a state resembling self hypnosis. He also discussed how by moving his head a fraction of an inch, he could muffle the impact of a blow which had the appearance of being devastating to obsevers. (Jake's discussion of this in "The Way it Was" program with SRR, Curt Gowdy and Don Dunphy is readily available on line.)

Trance states can indeed make one impervious to pain. Hypnotherapy is routinely used to relieve the intractable pain of terminally ill cancer patients for whom morphine does not work. (As pain is also a warning sign that something's wrong, such as a broken bone or infection, it's not generally a good idea to try going through life in such a state. You may wind up shortening your own as a result.)

Learning to pay attention can be crucial. Usually, a boxer gets knocked out by a punch which isn't seen. Any activity which conditions one to maintain attention can be beneficial in learning to do this. (Jack Blackburn favored table tennis.) Learn not to blink the eyes when within range of being hit.

A medical scan revealed that while Hagler's skull was normal, the band of muscle which surrounded his skull was one inch thick, where the average person has a layer one quarter inch thick. Certainly, we've all seen performing martial artists who were able to break planks and cinderblocks with their heads, so it's self evident that one can be conditioned to do this. The small muscles of the head can be reportedly developed somewhat through repeated contact with punches in sparring.

What about the jaw and sides of the face? Here comes an anecdote completely out of left field. It concerns a member of The Three Stooges. I think it was Larry Fine's son, ****** Wolf, who revealed that because there was no way to synthesize the sound of a slap across the face, Larry was actually getting slapped in rehearsals, and before the camera. According to this report, the sides of Fine's face eventually became callused as a result of this continual hard slapping.

There are some martial arts where students are conditioned to withstand blows to the head, through exercises such as butting swinging sandbags, until reaching the point of no longer having the senses compromised when contact is made. In Skehan's biography of Marciano, it was mentioned how, when Rocky was a kid, the boys would watch their uncles get drunk, and then compete with each other in head butting contests. That's right, two of them would take a position on opposite ends of the room, lower their heads, and charge each other like bulls to the cheers of the other men in the room, while the two who had just knocked heads were holding them, reeling in pain. (Male bonding for Italian immigrants.) Although I don't recall Skehan mentioning that the kids mimicked the drunken behavior of these grown men, it might not be too far a stretch to guess that Rocky may have done something like this with his buddies.

Not overtraining or undertraining can be invaluable in withstanding hard shots, or at least in recovering from them. Also, as the harder you work, the harder it is to surrender, the determination fueled by this principle can come into play.

Jack Dempsey chewed resin to strengthen his jaw muscles.

Developing the muscles of the neck and traps can be a big help in absorbing the impact of a heavy punch.

Tex Cobb could withstand massive kicks to the head. The fact is that there are other kickboxers who can do this. Not even Shavers could produce a punch to measure up to the power of a well executed kick.

There more ways to develop the ability to take a punch than I have the time or energy to describe.
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Old 08-26-2007, 07:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

I think you did a pretty solid job there regardless.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

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Originally Posted by I Am Legend
it's probably entirely state of mind. I'm a shitty fighter, with shitty technique, horrible stamina, and medicore power. however, i'm virtually immune to punches to the head because ive convinced myself i am. on a physical note, i have extremely strong jaw muscles due to years of chewing just about everything which may have lead to be able to take a decent punch. but by convincing myself i'm invincible, i am.
This actually describes me pretty closely too.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Conditioning is vital. Everything - including taking a good shot - is harder when you're tired.
Taking a good punch is also a matter of seeing the shot, or anticipating it.

I always found the hardest punches to take, or more correctly, the punches that hurt me the most were hooks to the point of the chin, especially if you didn't see it coming.
Flush punches to the face will bloody your nose and make your eyes water, but they don't really hurt that much. Neither do punches to the side of the head.
But boy...you get caught on the point of the chin with a good hook and you'll know you're hit. Your lower jaw feels like it's going to get wrenched from your head.
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Arguably the biggest factor is whether you see the punch coming or not, which comes down to experience and reaction times. When you see a punch coming, you have a split second to prepare yourself to take the impact; when you don't, you haven't, and that's what knocks you out.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

^ As stated above, it's what you do with the time you've got to react.

The punches you don't see coming hurt the most because you will not be bracing for impact, possibly moving into it to make things worse.

There is bracing for impact and then there is moving with the punch - the slightest movements can take much of the sting out of it.

Underlining this all is your mental strength. If you want to win at all costs and the punches are not shaking you, you'll force yourself to stay on your feet. A lot of knockouts are from fighters that have decided it would make sense to submit, or the sense of urgency to get away from punishment became too much.

Neck, jaw muscles and your centre of gravity all play a big part.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
A medical scan revealed that while Hagler's skull was normal, the band of muscle which surrounded his skull was one inch thick, where the average person has a layer one quarter inch thick. Certainly, we've all seen performing martial artists who were able to break planks and cinderblocks with their heads, so it's self evident that one can be conditioned to do this. The small muscles of the head can be reportedly developed somewhat through repeated contact with punches in sparring.
I hope you intended this as a joke, but forgot to warn the others.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
I hope you intended this as a joke, but forgot to warn the others.
The portion about Hagler is a fairly well-known story. I assume you're referring to the allegation about numerous punches to the head developing the surrounding muscle tissue. While I have read about this claim being proposed in all seriousness, I have my reservations about it's validity. There are exercises one can do to develop the muscles surrounding the skull (mostly culled from Hatha Yoga practices), but I'm no advocate of subjecting the brain to injury in an effort to do this. Bear in mind that I cautioned "reportedly." I did not express "reputedly," or present it as fact, merely anecdote. Nor should anybody ever take anything I post at face value without independently verifying it for themselves through a separate source of information.

I've made some nasty factual mistakes in several of my posts, and will certainly make countless more. A lot of the comments I make are based on distant recall of past events, which can definitely be a faulty vehicle to rely upon.

What little credibilty I have managed to scrounge up for myself during my short time on ESB seems to be based on recollections shared by fellow posters of relatively obscure details not yet available through sevices like youtube. Apparently, others are indeed independantly confirming some of my accounts through research of their own. Me, I'm just muddling through as best I can, technologically challenged as I still continue to be.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Sure you could get your self in tremmendous condition, strenghten your neck, chew gum, lots of demanding cardio,
but, if you are going to take punches, you have to be totally relaxed, unafraid, focussed.
And most important, you have to see those punches coming.
Where you get hit is also important and how you get hit.
Nobody lets anyone hit them on the chin for free.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:50 AM   #12
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

What "band of muscle which surrounded the skull" are you talking about?
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Here is an [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] of skull layers.
Look up the "galea aponeurotica" layer (otherwise called "Epicranial aponeurosis"), this is the muscle layer. It is very thin.
I don't know where you read that it is 1/4 inch thick on normal people, or that it can be up to 1 inch thick on some people, any source that says this is plain wrong (or they intended this as a joke). These muscles are not intended for protection of the skull, they are intended for mimicry mostly. I can guess one can train them by making faces in front of a mirror, but you will still be unable to build them and increase their thickness any significantly.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

if you watch some of the show of guys (roy jones jr and Twinky Wright) when they put their hands behind their back and take punches in a fight, what they do is put their chin to their neck and tighten their body.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
What "band of muscle which surrounded the skull" are you talking about?
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Here is an [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] of skull layers.
Look up the "galea aponeurotica" layer (otherwise called "Epicranial aponeurosis"), this is the muscle layer. It is very thin.
I don't know where you read that it is 1/4 inch thick on normal people, or that it can be up to 1 inch thick on some people, any source that says this is plain wrong (or they intended this as a joke). These muscles are not intended for protection of the skull, they are intended for mimicry mostly. I can guess one can train them by making faces in front of a mirror, but you will still be unable to build them and increase their thickness any significantly.
The next time I go to my local college library, I will see of I can rustle up those issues of the Boston area newspaper microfilm to document my source for this item. I took it if for granted that others on ESB familiar with Hagler's career already knew about this old story. I will do my utmost within my area to try locating the article revealing this. Failing that, I may be visiting the Boston/Brockton area this foliage season, and maybe locate some material for this through the Petronellis. (Assuming I can work up the nerve to risk driving into that vehicular nighmare.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: Taking a punch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Stickles
To me taking a good punch is just a matter of the person getting hit being able to take it or not.....Some can and some cant...But you can strengthen your neck to absord the shock better.........As far as body shots sit ups work wonders.......
yup that pretty much sums it up. You cant train a chin, some people jus thave weak jaw muscles than others. I dont think any1 wants 2 get knocked out, but shit just happens that cant b xplained
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