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Old 10-23-2008, 12:54 PM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
You 40s nuthugger Robinson didnt have hand speed like Roy Jones
Not to get off topic, but Ray Robinson was better than Roy Jones.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Not to get off topic, but Ray Robinson was better than Roy Jones.
We were talking SPEED, SRR and Charles were in the same era, but apparently Charles speed pisses on SRR's

As for him being better, its a close call, RJJ did things SRR could only dream of
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
90s nuthugger, I said Charles(not robinson)


btw, I rate Roy Jones # 2 160lber all time so dont call me bias twat
Charles is faster than Robinson?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
We were talking SPEED, SRR and Charles were in the same era, but apparently Charles speed pisses on SRR's

As for him being better, its a close call, RJJ did things SRR could only dream of
Ray robinson didn't have to dream about doing things that Roy could do.. He was a better fighter.. That's really all we have to know..
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Agreed,

He did have one hell of a run in the later 40's to early 50's. He reigned as heavyweight champion for something like 4 years, and was regularly fighting top flight contenders. I might be going out on a limb here, but glancing at his record, it would certainly seem like he's faced as many or more named opponents than just about any heavyweight champion I can think of.. Of course Louis fought more contenders and defended his title more than anyone, but I don't cosider men like Jack Roper, Johnny Davis, or Tony Musto as named opponents.. Charles fought Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Elmer Ray, Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, and shit loads of others..
The things about Charles is his career can be split into 2 sections, pre-Hw and HW. He first dominated the Black Murderers Row 160-175lb, which included Archie Moore, Bivins (both Moore and Bivins would become top HWs), Burley, Williams, Marshall. He also beat on future champs like Maxim. This is 1 of the best MW-LHW eras there was.

Then there's his HW pre title run of top contenders like Ray, Bivins,. Followed by beating Walcott for the HW title, defending 9 times, 3 against Walcot and 1 against a 36yo Louis who he would shut out.

He would lose to Walcot at teh age of 30, and I would say he was past his prime. He has a good case for winning the rematch though, and goto beat contenders like Layne and Satterfield, losing disputed decisions to Walcott, Layne and LHW champ Harold Johnson.

BUT the fact Charles performances were dipping indicates he is past prime, he seems to lose a step and given he was very much a combination throwing, moving fighter, his legs, stamina and speed were reliant to his success.

He has allot of defeats past this time, and he clearly wasn't the same fighter he once was
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:38 PM   #21
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

Charles is just a nightmare for anybody in history period.

Who in their right mind would want to fight him?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
The things about Charles is his career can be split into 2 sections, pre-Hw and HW. He first dominated the Black Murderers Row 160-175lb, which included Archie Moore, Bivins (both Moore and Bivins would become top HWs), Burley, Williams, Marshall. He also beat on future champs like Maxim. This is 1 of the best MW-LHW eras there was.

Then there's his HW pre title run of top contenders like Ray, Bivins,. Followed by beating Walcott for the HW title, defending 9 times, 3 against Walcot and 1 against a 36yo Louis who he would shut out.

He would lose to Walcot at teh age of 30, and I would say he was past his prime. He has a good case for winning the rematch though, and goto beat contenders like Layne and Satterfield, losing disputed decisions to Walcott, Layne and LHW champ Harold Johnson.

BUT the fact Charles performances were dipping indicates he is past prime, he seems to lose a step and given he was very much a combination throwing, moving fighter, his legs, stamina and speed were reliant to his success.

He has allot of defeats past this time, and he clearly wasn't the same fighter he once was
I concur,

He was way too busy and taking matches that he shouldn't have been.. A good time for Charles to retire, would have been after the Marciano fights. I think its possible that at the age of 33, Charles was past it against the Rock. Do you think a prime Charles could have barely beaten Rocky?
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Late 1940s charles who moved like an ice skater gliding around the ice with handspeed like roy jones has a real good shot at taking holmes.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by janitor
Charles is just a nightmare for anybody in history period.

Who in their right mind would want to fight him?
I certainly wouldn't if I were a champion or contender. There are essentially two things that really impress me about Ezzard Charles.

1. His quickness and technical skill were almost unheard of at heavyweight during or prior to his era.

2. He was exceptionally durable. After watching clips of the Marciano-Charles fights, I can say that viewing Ezzard taking repeated bombs from Rocky were hurting me just watching it. Its amazing that he stood up to that kind of punishment for 15 rounds ( the first time ).
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by janitor
Charles is just a nightmare for anybody in history period.

Who in their right mind would want to fight him?

H's a nightmare for the vast majority, absolutely. Holmes has his hands full for sure.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I concur,

He was way too busy and taking matches that he shouldn't have been.. A good time for Charles to retire, would have been after the Marciano fights. I think its possible that at the age of 33, Charles was past it against the Rock. Do you think a prime Charles could have barely beaten Rocky?
Hard to say, the first fight was a close 1 and Ezzard's makes Rocky look foolish early. But Rocky can only fight the man in front of him. Maybe Rocky's punches would have always had that accumulative effect that would have broken Charles down to take the late rounds or maybe Charles better stamina in his youth allows him to hang on for the UD. Ofcourse Rocky himself was quite possibly post prime when they fought, and was better 3years earlier

Not a popular thing to say Charles beat Marciano prime for prime, but possible none the less
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

powerpuncher though i agree charles record 1946-51 is immensley impressive...i think his heavyweight title reign is unspectacular because he defended his title reign 5 out of the 8 times vs IBC controlled ham and eggers instead of young deserving hungry studs like henry baker marciano lastarza. had he supplemented some of those guys and beat instead baker henry lastarza....i would find it hard to argue charles is not a top 12 heavyweight of all time.



btw....who says jones handspeed is faster than robinson's?
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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1 against a 36yo Louis who he would shut out.

WRONG Louis won at least 4 rounds. He also puffed up charles face horribly. I think louis does better in the rematch
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
btw magoo though i agree charles record 1946-51 is immensley impressive...i think his heavyweight title reign is unspectacular because he defended his title reign 5 out of the 8 times vs IBC controlled ham and eggers instead of young deserving hungry studs like henry baker marciano lastarza. had he supplemented some of those guys and beat instead baker henry lastarza....i would find it hard to argue charles is not a top 12 heavyweight of all time.



btw....who says jones handspeed is faster than robinson's?
I suppose Charles reign could have consisted of some better fighters, just as a lot of champion's reigns could have. Neverthless, I think he's easily a top 15 guy in my book..

I don't know who was faster between Jones or Robinson, but I pick Sugar as the better fighter.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Larry Holmes vs Ezzard Charles

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Then there's his HW pre title run of top contenders like Ray, Bivins,. Followed by beating Walcott for the HW title, defending 9 times, 3 against Walcot and 1 against a 36yo Louis who he would shut out.

5 of those times against ham and egger IBC controlled fighters instead of henry baker marciano and lastarza


- also he lost to elmery ray. in the rematch he beat ray, but ray was in decline at this point. according to the fight reports ray gassed after a couple rounds allowing charles to take over....ray was 38 years old.


Quote:
He would lose to Walcot at teh age of 30, and I would say he was past his prime. He has a good case for winning the rematch though, and goto beat contenders like Layne and Satterfield, losing disputed decisions to Walcott, Layne and LHW champ Harold Johnson.

no way, charles was in his prime when walcott knocked him out. walcott was simply a man on a mission that night, he took the life out of charles with that kayo win. Charles went on to post one of his career best filmed performances his very next fight knocking out rex layne, so i would hardly say he was past his prime. Walcott was the one who was 37-38 years old when he beat ezzard. ray was 37 when he beat charles.



Quote:
and goto beat contenders like Layne and Satterfield, losing disputed decisions to Walcott, Layne and LHW champ Harold Johnson
dont forget colley wallace who was rated # 10 by ring magazine when charles beat him. wallace was 6'3 200lb a big puncher. also Tommy Harrison was rated # 9 by ring magazine when charles beat him.



Quote:
was very much a combination throwing, moving fighter, his legs, stamina and speed were reliant to his success.
I didnt notice a sharp decline in these things on film till post 1954 marciano fights. I did notice a slight drop post 1951, but after 1954 he went into a drastic drop.
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