Ali's legacy

garymcfall · 08-04-2007, 11:20 AM

Hypothetical situation:

Ali never has his boxing licence revoked, defeats Joe Frazier the first time fairly convincingly and then defeats George Foreman as well (Remember George's win over Frazier doesnt make him as feared as Frazier isnt held in such high esteem)

Would he be number one on as many peoples all time great list?

And my final question - Did Ali's exile from boxing actually HELP his legacy, as it allowed Joe Frazier to prove his greatness and therefore Foreman to establish his?

cross_trainer · 08-04-2007, 11:31 AM

Dominance from Liston to Foreman would give him a Louis-like title reign, although his era would be derided as a talentless swamp where there was only one great fighter and a bunch of nonentities. Later boxing commentators shake their heads and wonder, "What if Ali was forced to face an era with real competition?"

GazOC · 08-04-2007, 11:33 AM

I've though about this a lot and I think not, the fact that he had the layoff mean that Frazier/ Foreman had the chance to get established as decent fighters/ champions.

The other way Ali would just have beaten a couple of green ex Olympic champs.

My dinner with Conteh · 08-04-2007, 11:43 AM

The Frazier and Foreman wins would still be better than any of Louis's.

GazOC · 08-04-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

The Frazier and Foreman wins would still be better than any of Louis's.

True. I put the negative slant on the last sentence of my post just to try emphasize the point rather than to put down the achievment.

ChrisPontius · 08-04-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garymcfall

And my final question - Did Ali's exile from boxing actually HELP his legacy, as it allowed Joe Frazier to prove his greatness and therefore Foreman to establish his?

I think it did, exactly the reasons you lined out.

Dempsey1238 · 08-04-2007, 02:25 PM

Fraizer and Forman would not be heavyweight champs. Maybe contenders, but the lay off help Ali legacy wise. Fraizer would have been a Goodey and Foreman other Baer.

cross_trainer · 08-04-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

The Frazier and Foreman wins would still be better than any of Louis's.

Only because Louis never gave his opponents the opportunity to become Foremans or Fraziers.

My dinner with Conteh · 08-04-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Only because Louis never gave his opponents the opportunity to become Foremans or Fraziers.

Olympic Heavyweight Gold Medallists were they? You can say the same about Larry Holmes too. Maybe Lorenzo Zanon and Leroy Jones would have been a Frazier or Foreman then?

My dinner with Conteh · 08-04-2007, 02:51 PM

Maybe if Ali had have struggled badly with a light heavy whose best work came at middle (swap Conn for Tiger) then his reputation would have been far richer. Maybe if he'd have been put on his arse by a silly looking fat guy (say, Bepi Ros) he'd have been lauded even more.

GazOC · 08-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Only because Louis never gave his opponents the opportunity to become Foremans or Fraziers.

Yeah right, Louis' opponents were inferior to Foreman and Frazier irrespective of how he dealt with them.

ChrisPontius · 08-04-2007, 03:07 PM

Well Ali did get put on his arse by a small mediocre heavy and he wasn't up within a second like Louis was.

I don't think any of Louis' title opponents could've been a Frazier or a Foreman, but some could've been more established.

What if a 69 Frazier beats Ali, then loses to Ali in a rematch the next year in a clinchfest just like their real second fight. In 1973, Ali humiliates Foreman just like he did in reality which will makeForeman look like a clumsy fighter with a padded record. Then Foreman annihilates Frazier (no title on line).

In that scenario, Frazier may would be less high regarded as will Foreman and Ali's legacy would be smaller because he lost to a now lesser fighter in Frazier and the Foreman win wouldn't be as spectacular.

08-04-2007, 11:20 AM	#1
garymcfall Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 952 vCash: 944	Ali's legacy Hypothetical situation: Ali never has his boxing licence revoked, defeats Joe Frazier the first time fairly convincingly and then defeats George Foreman as well (Remember George's win over Frazier doesnt make him as feared as Frazier isnt held in such high esteem) Would he be number one on as many peoples all time great list? And my final question - Did Ali's exile from boxing actually HELP his legacy, as it allowed Joe Frazier to prove his greatness and therefore Foreman to establish his?
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08-04-2007, 11:31 AM	#2
cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,381 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali's legacy Dominance from Liston to Foreman would give him a Louis-like title reign, although his era would be derided as a talentless swamp where there was only one great fighter and a bunch of nonentities. Later boxing commentators shake their heads and wonder, "What if Ali was forced to face an era with real competition?"
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08-04-2007, 11:33 AM	#3
GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Spion Kop Posts: 44,504 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali's legacy I've though about this a lot and I think not, the fact that he had the layoff mean that Frazier/ Foreman had the chance to get established as decent fighters/ champions. The other way Ali would just have beaten a couple of green ex Olympic champs.
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08-04-2007, 11:43 AM	#4
My dinner with Conteh P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 21,600 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali's legacy The Frazier and Foreman wins would still be better than any of Louis's.
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08-04-2007, 02:25 PM	#7
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali's legacy Fraizer and Forman would not be heavyweight champs. Maybe contenders, but the lay off help Ali legacy wise. Fraizer would have been a Goodey and Foreman other Baer.
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08-04-2007, 02:51 PM	#10
My dinner with Conteh P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 21,600 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali's legacy Maybe if Ali had have struggled badly with a light heavy whose best work came at middle (swap Conn for Tiger) then his reputation would have been far richer. Maybe if he'd have been put on his arse by a silly looking fat guy (say, Bepi Ros) he'd have been lauded even more.
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08-04-2007, 03:07 PM	#12
ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 East Side VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Holland Posts: 11,749 vCash: 238	Re: Ali's legacy Well Ali did get put on his arse by a small mediocre heavy and he wasn't up within a second like Louis was. I don't think any of Louis' title opponents could've been a Frazier or a Foreman, but some could've been more established. What if a 69 Frazier beats Ali, then loses to Ali in a rematch the next year in a clinchfest just like their real second fight. In 1973, Ali humiliates Foreman just like he did in reality which will makeForeman look like a clumsy fighter with a padded record. Then Foreman annihilates Frazier (no title on line). In that scenario, Frazier may would be less high regarded as will Foreman and Ali's legacy would be smaller because he lost to a now lesser fighter in Frazier and the Foreman win wouldn't be as spectacular.
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