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Old 08-06-2007, 01:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

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Originally Posted by Pugsley
Wow. That's what I figured too. Especially about the peripherals part. No obstruction to your view, and no obstruction to your body, clears the way to punch from all angles. It also seems that a person in no guard can force you to commit yourself more deeply to the punch. MAking it difficult to gauge their range consistently.
I presume that video of whitaker doing his thing against DLH was a good example of No Guard?
When he has his hands low and is moving his head to make him miss 7 shots. That is no guard. It is allowing him to be fluid and move his head. You see how low he can get because he is feeling so fluid.

Again, he had the speed to pull it off.

Slower guys have done it though i.e. Cotto. He did it against Quintana if you remember.
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Old 08-06-2007, 01:44 PM   #17
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Thing I dont get is, that the hands down guard continues to be critiqued by Boxing even today, when there are examples of fighters who have pulled it off with success. Why does No Guard get so much flack? Is it considered showing off?????

It's the 'keep your hands up!' I constantly hear being fired all over gyms... I thought a true Boxing gym would be able to teach people to fight in all guards, stances and variations.

Any clarification on this would be good.
It does wrongly get criticised. It makes a fighter more versatile and it has its advantages.

Some guys fight more effectively out of it than they do full guard. Look at Anthony Small, he does not look comfortable fighting out of full guard. He appears at his best in no guard and half guard. He is dynamic out of those guards. Nevertheless some will make him pay for it and he needs to have other things in his repertoire. His style totally bamboozled Wright but Pryce was able to stay with it.

Take Calzaghe-Bika, I remember once he dropped his hands and then stuck his chin out but came back with a looping punch that was from an angle Bika was unable to defend against.

People in boxing are generally very limited. You know my thought - versatility.

I'll pull off no guard, half guard and full guard against different fighters. Its about finding the answer, doing what works and leaving with the W.

Text book does not just mean hands up. It's the manner and technique used to implement any skill.
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Old 08-06-2007, 04:31 PM   #18
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No reason to keep your ****in left hand down.

If you're gonna do it, you're gonna get hit.

There is always someone out there who is faster and better than you. If you're not ****in Floyd and haven't been in the game with the experience he has, keep your ****in hands up.

Floyd even puts his hands up when he has to.

That's philly shell shit is alright if you're going against a boxer who's gonna mostly throw straight punches or hit you with uppercuts.

Either way, keep your ****in hands up.
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Old 08-06-2007, 04:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat
It does wrongly get criticised. It makes a fighter more versatile and it has its advantages.

Some guys fight more effectively out of it than they do full guard. Look at Anthony Small, he does not look comfortable fighting out of full guard. He appears at his best in no guard and half guard. He is dynamic out of those guards. Nevertheless some will make him pay for it and he needs to have other things in his repertoire. His style totally bamboozled Wright but Pryce was able to stay with it.

Take Calzaghe-Bika, I remember once he dropped his hands and then stuck his chin out but came back with a looping punch that was from an angle Bika was unable to defend against.

People in boxing are generally very limited. You know my thought - versatility.

I'll pull off no guard, half guard and full guard against different fighters. Its about finding the answer, doing what works and leaving with the W.

Text book does not just mean hands up. It's the manner and technique used to implement any skill.
I don't agree.

Theses kids should be learning textbook fundamental boxing.

Putting your hands down leaves you open to be hit.

Kids should learn how to do it right from the get go before keeping their hand down becomes a habit and they eventually get knocked out.

Last edited by Dr Z; 04-17-2006 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

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Originally Posted by capfunds
No reason to keep your ****in left hand down.

If you're gonna do it, you're gonna get hit.

There is always someone out there who is faster and better than you. If you're not ****in Floyd and haven't been in the game with the experience he has, keep your ****in hands up.

Floyd even puts his hands up when he has to.

That's philly shell shit is alright if you're going against a boxer who's gonna mostly throw straight punches or hit you with uppercuts.

Either way, keep your ****in hands up.
There are more ways to avoid a punch than blocking and you don't have to be superman to pull them off.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:45 PM   #21
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There are more ways to avoid a punch than blocking and you don't have to be superman to pull them off.
Yeah, you can slip punches, but you can slip them regardless of whether your left hand is up or not.

Besides, keeping your hands up puts them in better position to counter.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat
It does wrongly get criticised. It makes a fighter more versatile and it has its advantages.

Some guys fight more effectively out of it than they do full guard. Look at Anthony Small, he does not look comfortable fighting out of full guard. He appears at his best in no guard and half guard. He is dynamic out of those guards. Nevertheless some will make him pay for it and he needs to have other things in his repertoire. His style totally bamboozled Wright but Pryce was able to stay with it.

Take Calzaghe-Bika, I remember once he dropped his hands and then stuck his chin out but came back with a looping punch that was from an angle Bika was unable to defend against.

People in boxing are generally very limited. You know my thought - versatility.

I'll pull off no guard, half guard and full guard against different fighters. Its about finding the answer, doing what works and leaving with the W.

Text book does not just mean hands up. It's the manner and technique used to implement any skill.
Keyword versatility. I know you've said it many times. Seemed like many fighters today are still very much fixated. Of course, they are good at doing their thing if even its only one way. I appreciate your point. Good to know that there are people thinking laterally out there.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:32 AM   #23
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

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Originally Posted by capfunds
I don't agree.

Theses kids should be learning textbook fundamental boxing.

Putting your hands down leaves you open to be hit.

Kids should learn how to do it right from the get go before keeping their hand down becomes a habit and they eventually get knocked out.
A guy who knows how to fight in full guard and half guard is better than someone who just knows one guard. This is if they are both complete fighters in that guard.

The first guard to be taught should be full guard.

You'll actually find that some of the best amateurs don't cover up in full guard, they use their feet, move their head and catch shots.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: gaurds/stances

Quote:
Originally Posted by capfunds
No reason to keep your ****in left hand down.

If you're gonna do it, you're gonna get hit.

There is always someone out there who is faster and better than you. If you're not ****in Floyd and haven't been in the game with the experience he has, keep your ****in hands up.

Floyd even puts his hands up when he has to.

That's philly shell shit is alright if you're going against a boxer who's gonna mostly throw straight punches or hit you with uppercuts.

Either way, keep your ****in hands up.
You are wrong.

Cotto and X vs Quintana and Taylor are examples of making their faster foes miss.

How do you ever expect to be as good as the best fighters if you stay limited forever.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by capfunds
Yeah, you can slip punches, but you can slip them regardless of whether your left hand is up or not.

Besides, keeping your hands up puts them in better position to counter.
In half guard your peripheral increase, you become more angled off thus a smaller target and it becomes easier to slip shots.

Everything has its advantages.

Its about being versatile so you have the answer for every situation.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat
In half guard your peripheral increase, you become more angled off thus a smaller target and it becomes easier to slip shots.

Everything has its advantages.

Its about being versatile so you have the answer for every situation.
You might be right, but look at Cabellero for instance.

There is a guy that is able to keep his left hand down for one reason only, he's tall.

And honestly he's not fast, and it seems to me that he's not even entirelly too skilled, especially for a championship level fighter.

He just has the advantage of being a 6 foot 122 lber.

Fact is though, his last opponent had no trouble landing right hands, and if only the guy had some power, like Vasquez or Marquez, Cabellero would be in a fetal position on the ground.

Personally, I think kids should learn to keep their hands up regardless of whether they're tall or short, fast or slow.

If they want to drop their hands in the future, they can, but learning proper fundamentals from the start is crucial to their development.

Who knows when they'll meet a guy that has equal height and reach?

Or, what's going to happen when they fight a good inside fighter?

They're going to find out real fast how much it hurts to drop your hands.

Also, you mentioned Taylor as one of fighters you reasoned is doing a good job when he keeps his hands down.

This might be true when he's outside his opponents range, but it's a terrible idea when his opponent gets inside, for instance in his fight with Winky and Ouma who were shorter, but were able to capitalize on Taylor because he dropped his left hand.

Taylor is about to find out the hard way why he should keep his hand up when he fights Pavlik.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capfunds
You might be right, but look at Cabellero for instance.

There is a guy that is able to keep his left hand down for one reason only, he's tall.

And honestly he's not fast, and it seems to me that he's not even entirelly too skilled, especially for a championship level fighter.

He just has the advantage of being a 6 foot 122 lber.

Fact is though, his last opponent had no trouble landing right hands, and if only the guy had some power, like Vasquez or Marquez, Cabellero would be in a fetal position on the ground.

Personally, I think kids should learn to keep their hands up regardless of whether they're tall or short, fast or slow.

If they want to drop their hands in the future, they can, but learning proper fundamentals from the start is crucial to their development.

Who knows when they'll meet a guy that has equal height and reach?

Or, what's going to happen when they fight a good inside fighter?

They're going to find out real fast how much it hurts to drop your hands.

Also, you mentioned Taylor as one of fighters you reasoned is doing a good job when he keeps his hands down.

This might be true when he's outside his opponents range, but it's a terrible idea when his opponent gets inside, for instance in his fight with Winky and Ouma who were shorter, but were able to capitalize on Taylor because he dropped his left hand.

Taylor is about to find out the hard way why he should keep his hand up when he fights Pavlik.
I wouldn't call it getting away with it. Some guys do take advantage of their speed or height but like I said neither Cotto or Hopkins do that, they are just skilled operators.

If a Cabellaro is fighting Marquez then he needs to be versatile and be able to do things to stop Marquez landing that right hand. This is why you need to be dynamic so you have the answer for different situations.

Who knows what will happen when any two fighters meet. This is why you need to be smart and skilled so you know what to do and when to do it.

I agree full guard is the first guard that must be taught and mastered. However I think every fighter should know how to fight out of half guard and no guard.

What happens if you bust your shoulder and can't keep it up? What happens if you are too tired to keep your hands up? You need to be prepared for everything.

I'm not saying knowing half guard and no guard is imperative to ones success BUT it sure doesn't hurt, ask Hopkins, Mayweather and many other legends.

Another thing is not everyone can comfortably fight out of full guard. Some guys mindset, proportioning and talent see to it that fighting out of half guard is more comfortable and effective that full guard. Mainly look at tall guys who are rangy and broad; it is not comfortable at all to fight out of full guard. Similar for a guy who is short and stocky, it won't be as good fighting out of half guard. Examples are Vernon Forrest for a tall guy and Miguel Cotto for a short guy. Guard can also be dictated by talent i.e. Floyd is a fast guy who likes half guard, Winky is a strong guy who likes full guard.

Half guard doesn't mean carrying your hand at your hip. Half guard is dropping your left hand about six inches. Carrying your hand low is just a variation of hall guard, just like peek a boo is a variation of full guard. Again, carrying your hand really low has its advantages i.e. covering your stomach with your forearm.

You say carrying your hand low is dangerous inside. I say Mayweather shows you it isn't. You become a smaller target because you have covered nearly everything and then you proceed to rip all kinds of right hands off.

I said X employed half guard effectively against a faster opponent in Taylor. Taylor has serious technical flaws.

An example of being in half guard is this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I couldn't find great examples but you can see how his left hand is a little lower but his vision increases and he can still block with his shoulder. He isn't wildly out of position or carrying his hand by his hip.

Floyd is a GREAT example of someone employing full guard, half guard and no guard. He employs the original stance, peek a boo, half guard with hand low or high, both hands low, you name it. All while maintaining a great defence. Sometimes half guard doesn't serve him well i.e. vs Judah but sometimes full guard doesn't serve him well. Floyd switches his guard up loads during a fight and that is what a great fighter does, look to Hopkins, Cotto and other good fighters for examples.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:00 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat
I wouldn't call it getting away with it. Some guys do take advantage of their speed or height but like I said neither Cotto or Hopkins do that, they are just skilled operators.

If a Cabellaro is fighting Marquez then he needs to be versatile and be able to do things to stop Marquez landing that right hand. This is why you need to be dynamic so you have the answer for different situations.

Who knows what will happen when any two fighters meet. This is why you need to be smart and skilled so you know what to do and when to do it.

I agree full guard is the first guard that must be taught and mastered. However I think every fighter should know how to fight out of half guard and no guard.

What happens if you bust your shoulder and can't keep it up? What happens if you are too tired to keep your hands up? You need to be prepared for everything.

I'm not saying knowing half guard and no guard is imperative to ones success BUT it sure doesn't hurt, ask Hopkins, Mayweather and many other legends.

Another thing is not everyone can comfortably fight out of full guard. Some guys mindset, proportioning and talent see to it that fighting out of half guard is more comfortable and effective that full guard. Mainly look at tall guys who are rangy and broad; it is not comfortable at all to fight out of full guard. Similar for a guy who is short and stocky, it won't be as good fighting out of half guard. Examples are Vernon Forrest for a tall guy and Miguel Cotto for a short guy. Guard can also be dictated by talent i.e. Floyd is a fast guy who likes half guard, Winky is a strong guy who likes full guard.

Half guard doesn't mean carrying your hand at your hip. Half guard is dropping your left hand about six inches. Carrying your hand low is just a variation of hall guard, just like peek a boo is a variation of full guard. Again, carrying your hand really low has its advantages i.e. covering your stomach with your forearm.

You say carrying your hand low is dangerous inside. I say Mayweather shows you it isn't. You become a smaller target because you have covered nearly everything and then you proceed to rip all kinds of right hands off.

I said X employed half guard effectively against a faster opponent in Taylor. Taylor has serious technical flaws.

An example of being in half guard is this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I couldn't find great examples but you can see how his left hand is a little lower but his vision increases and he can still block with his shoulder. He isn't wildly out of position or carrying his hand by his hip.

Floyd is a GREAT example of someone employing full guard, half guard and no guard. He employs the original stance, peek a boo, half guard with hand low or high, both hands low, you name it. All while maintaining a great defence. Sometimes half guard doesn't serve him well i.e. vs Judah but sometimes full guard doesn't serve him well. Floyd switches his guard up loads during a fight and that is what a great fighter does, look to Hopkins, Cotto and other good fighters for examples.
True, but.....

I guarentee you that you won't see Cotto using anything but fullguard when he's fighting welterweights.

He's shorter than most of the division and he's not as fast as the guys he's as tall as.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:22 AM   #29
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Any examples of a No Guard? Could it be... Ali????
tunney, pastrano, (somtimes) ray leonard,naz.

it's more popular than you think.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:51 AM   #30
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True, but.....

I guarentee you that you won't see Cotto using anything but fullguard when he's fighting welterweights.

He's shorter than most of the division and he's not as fast as the guys he's as tall as.
Cotto comes out of full guard is basically every fight.

Quintana had height, reach, size and speed on Cotto but he came out of full guard numerous times, hell he even went into no guard.
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