If Haye beats Wlad and Vitali back to back is he a top15 HW?

Yes no.15 @Heavy if he did IMO.

 

I have to say no.

He would obviously rank verry high head to head in that scenario, but his resume would not stack up. It would have two superb wins but not much else.

Ironicaly Wlad might still remain top 15 in that scenario.

 

He may. He definitely ranks ahead of Tunney in that scenario. He would look like a modern day giant killer if he triumphs Wlad and Vitali. It will reiterate the idea that bigger doesn't necessarily equate to better and that smaller fighters bring certain advantages that they could use to exploit bigger HWs.

Good thread, I've actually thought of this hypothetically too, and wasn't too sure like you. No man has ever beat BOTH K brothers, which is an achievement in of itself. They're different, varied fighters.

I agree with McGrain that there's a hard top 14 in regards to the HWs. After that, it's gets blurry. Part of the key here is how he beats these fighters. If he demolishes both of them, which hasn't been done I think it may be reasonable to put him #15. He would have only one loss, and although he lacks depth, he has big names and would be undefeated at the weight class.

I think he would compare almost to someone like Bowe. Bowe won 2/3 against Holyfield and only has one loss to Holyfield. After that his depth is paper thin. Ruiz and Valuev, are still probably better names than the next best guy Bowe beat even if they were a bit old and not that good anyway. Holyfield, though, consistently out-ranks Vitali & Wlad in legacy. However, beating Holyfield 2/3 times when he proved to have inconsistencies in his track record may not be as impressive as being a smaller HW beating dominant, bigger, more consistent fighters like Vitali and Wlad. Even if their domination has been over lesser opposition (Wlad to an extremely lesser degree). It's complicated when you really begin to analyze, because what I've said sounds completely foolish in a legacy standpoint. But a small man beating a bigger man rather than vice versa has to count for more of something. Isn't that part of the reason why Holyfield gets ranked where he does, despite his inconsistencies? Does that not matter when we talk of the division of big men; a place where limits of size and weight don't exist.

Now instead of Bowe compare Haye to Schemling. Max has that awesome win over Louis. Does that win triumph the two K brothers win? Schemling has better wins after the Louis win, but has some inconsistencies in his track record like Holyfield. We can attribute the superior era and the fact that Maxie has to fight more often, and much better opposition. Haye landed this fight, without really beating or going through the best contenders. Yes, he scrapped by Valuev in a close contest, and then beat Ruiz but doesn't have the depth Wlad has. So boxing is different in a way to what it was than. How do we gauge all of that? It's like comparing Pac to the past fighters in a sense. He's had a luxury of more belts, divisions, catch-weights, etc.

It really depends what you look for. He's definitely ahead of Tunney, whom I rank outside the top 20. Is he ahead of Patterson, Langford, Walcott, Charles, Schemling, and Bowe who are the 6 names to round out my top 20? I don't know. If he did it, I'd probably rank him #18 or #19. Knocking Bowe out of the top 20, and maybe having him edging Max but below Walcott. Honestly, I'm not too sure.

Another question to wonder. What does it do for Wlad's legacy? Is he done, having loss to too many punchers and or pressure fighters? How does his legacy stand. Can he make the top 20 with a loss to Haye? Even with his dominance and defenses since 2005?

 

I would put him there.

 

Just behind Vitali's conqueror, Adamek, whom Haye would obviously be ducking by taking this fight. :good

The scenario I am hoping for (i know unlikely) is Adamek to emerge in the next three months as champion, take a fight with Chad Dawson (his only conqueror) and lose. Leaving a Chad Dawson v Bernard Hopkins fight for the title! That would really shake up the all time ratings.

 

I cant see Wlad staying top 15 if Haye dominants and KOs him. His chin simply wouldnt be up to a proven standard for all time greats. And this would hurt Hayes standing also. I think a dominant points decision or late KO over both brothers would do the most for Hayes legacy.

Wlad is so precariously placed. He can go up or down very easily.

 

No, there are too many heavyweights who have done more than Haye at heavyweight.

 

It would only confirm what seems pretty damn clear to me -that as a general rule, heavyweights can't fight.

These days the American heavweights are particularly weak. Big and weak. And the woeful performances by a parade of them has less to do with the "greatness" of either brother and more to do with bum conditioning, bum skill levels, and the bum trainers behind them.

 

First off I highly doubt he beats Wlad. If Haye manages to cash in on a puncher chance, he would need to beat a 40+ year old Vitali. If Vitali looses, I think father time will be the main reason why.

But to humor you with the question, If Haye beats them both, and makes a few defenses without being upset by a lesser fighter vs. ranked contenders in their prime ( and he has fought none to date at heavyweight ), he can be considered a top 20 heavyweight.

My prediction. By Sunday Haye is more likely to be remembered as the next Herbie Hide.

 

Without a doubt IMO. He would I've beaten the two guys who I've dominated since Lewis. Yes he wouldn't have a lot of depth to his resume. But he would have beaten both brothers, the biggest HW champ in history, as well as a former world champion in Ruiz. The two brothers alone should push him into the top 15. If it doesn't, the Valuev and Ruiz wins should just edge him over

 

I think win or lose wlad is top 15 and vitali is top 25.

If haye knocks out both of these, compounded with his wins over valuev and ruiz he's probably the best heavyweight so far of the 10's.

Certainly top 20 and arguably at number 15 instead of wlad.

 

****, I thought he lost to Valuev, which puts him about 243rd.