Primo Carnera is as big as Wlad...

Wlad picks him apart, yeah but not today´s Vitali. Too slow and his leaning back defence doesn´t work against similar big fighters as the Lewis fight proved. Prime Vitali would beat Carnera although rather on points than anything but today´s? Like said 50/50.

 

Similar big fighters? Are implying Lennox Lewis and Primo Carera are similar big fighter? No way. Lewis is far more skilled. Take note, Lewis was down 4-2 on all three score cards prior to the cut stoppage. I would say Vitali game was working. In fact Lewis himself said Vitali was hard to hit.

 

Look at their stats, they are similar big. Lewis still hit him quite often, didn´t he? Often enough to stop him. And no, I won´t discuss Vitali with you, pointles, you´re too big of a fan.

 

Ok my gameplan for fighting Wlad - most of these things Haye can't and has never done so he won't learn to do them in the boxing ring:

1. Take a step forward as you slip a punch and double and treble the jab to the head and body. Not many boxers can do this, Haye isn't 1 of them, he can slip punches but only on the backfoot. If he misses the first jab the second will land. Never throw a third jab after missing the first 2 though as that'll see you get countered. By jabbing with Wlad, it will take his jab away, it will stop him walking forward, it will push him back, thus taking away his advantage. When he's on the backfoot he's far less effective, he's not comfortable and easier to hit, his footwork is disorganised on the backfoot and he gets stressed

Haye has never doubled his jab though, only ever thrown singles, so again another thing he can't do.

2. Step over and throw the left hook. Haye had about a 100% success rate with his left hook because Wlad was looking for the right and jab. Haye hasn't got a left hook and like all of his punches he loops it though but he still should have been throwing it because aside from anything it makes him less predictable and it upsets Wlads gameplan. Wlad being such a big man is easier to hit with left hooks usually and he's been pretty susceptable to them over his career

3. Always follow the right with a left hook - it's a cardinal sin not to in allot of boxing gyms because if you miss the right your off balance - as Haye was. You can see Haye landed the left hooks he threw throughout and when he landed a right and put a left hook in the 12th - it landed

4. Throw combinations - you can't land those singles because he's so far out of range, so how about stepping in with the jab, hooking off it to the head and body. Problem is Haye can't throw combinations, he doesn't have the ability to put them together too well or the stamina

5. Use the left uppercut inside to follow the right - Morales used to do this really well. But Haye doesn't have an uppercut. It's probably the easiest punch to develop but he isn't learning it mid fight

6. Set up your big shots (hayemakers - does he realise calling himself that imply's a lack of skill, how ironic) behind straight compact punches and jabs. He loops his shots, always has

7. Bodypunching - Wlad's head is a harder target so high up, buth is body isn't. Again a lack of a short left hook gives Haye a problem, he's never thrown to the body before, bodypunching is different to head punching so he can't learn it for 1 fight. No one likes it to the body, but Wlad especially in 2 of his losses he had his body worked over. Steward knows this is a weakness in his taller men and against bodypunchers pulls their shorts high to act like body armour

8. Make it an in-fight once you've used your inside taking away his advantage or range. Problem is Hayes punches are too wide for in fighting, watch how ineffective his punches are against Audley when he's at close range trying to finish him

9. When he pulls you down hit him low - this would be pretty easy to hide because you're being leaned on and would stop this cheating tactic of Wlad's. Plus it would obviously wind him, an unpunnished low blow is magic if you can follow up on it - see Tyson-Holyfield and obviously Dempsey-Sharkey

All textbook pressure fighting, but Haye can't pressure fight, he can counter punch and potshot, that's the some of his skillset so saying 'he doesn't show the heart' isn't really accurate, he just had his style exposed but still attempted to apply pressure in the 12th. If Wlad looked to exchange with him it would have appeared he had much more heart because he would have got hit and hit his opponent back.

 

If Haye had consistently at least tried a body attack(ideally a big right hand down the pipes) i think Wlad would have been broken down a lot earlier. Slipping for 12 rounds and punching up to get at that head is obviously not gonna work that well unless you're really bulling your way in and trying to land multiple shots up and down stairs(and he doesn't do that ever). Potshots arent enough to break wlad, if he had paid attention to Wlad's KO losses perhaps he would have seen that you do need to hammer him down to break him.

I would not agree that the uppercut is the easiest punch to develop. Most people can't really throw a good one these days. I wouldn't even say there are any really great ones out there beside Marquez and Bute.

 

I think he thought he'd just do what Sanders did because he's as quick. But then again Haye doesn't have the body punches, its a different skill

Wlad's pace is another thing that Haye can't really handle, it's a very fast pace and it was actually slower than usual. But Haye doesn't do his roadwork he goes for walks

I don't know about most fighters but I found the uppercut and jab the easy punches to learn, the others took much more practise. It's probably 1 of the harder punches to land though

 

I only got to watch the fight on on a top start internet link, so i could be a little off. But just a few comments from what i noticed:

First, I think that Haye really went up a bit in stock after this fight. His questionable chin showed he could handle what Wlad sent at him. Yes he fought negatively and to survive for most of the fight, but Wlad landed some big shots and Haye's questionable chin stood up to it easily.

Wlad is clearly developing a good record from a legacy point of view. This was a good solid fight against an in shape fighter that he was able to dominate. Fairness dictates that Wlad will do the same against most fighters who have ever graced the ring. I still think that after this fight, a question mark does hang over his chin. Am i wrong in thinking that Wlad was wobbled and holding on for his life, during the last round, whne Haye hit him with the first decent shot of the fight (on his side) and then actually tried to follow it up.

I think people totally underestimate the mental aura that Wlad had in this fight and has had in others. It is not all that far behind the aura that the likes of tyson, and others had. It is different, but i think that mentally Wlad has most of his fights won before he enters the ring. Haye was obviously scared of his size and i think it costs him as it does many people when they fight him. It is amazing to me how everyone who fights Wlad does so at a distance, when it is quite clear that his reach is going to give him an insurmountable advantage at length. But i think Wlad's size has people almost scared to get in close early with Wlad and have him lean on them and wear them down. Obviously Wlad's actual size and power is what makes it so difficult to get in close but this is like Tyson's power made the myth so much bigger than it was. I think this aura helps Wlad win massively (all greats are helped by an aura).

The lack of experience of Wlad's opponent was really telling. He was just too untested. Had not been through wars before and did not know whether or not he could stand up, because he did not fight often enough. I think this is one of the major reasons why modern fighters are at a massive disadvantage. Haye really pressed teh fight in the last round, but he wasnt confident enough to do so earlier, when he was perhaps in a position to do so. I am sure that Hayes tactics were to fight at range and potshot until Wlad got tired, and go for the late KO. I think that Wlad who is excellently conditioned for a big man (which is always underlooked) didnt really tire like was hoped, and Haye simply wasnt good enough and couldnt have a go until the last round because of this. I think this would have definitely changed if Haye had more experience because he would have been confident in his ability to survive a war. I would actually like to see Haye go back and fight 10 fights next year against 10 different opponents (good skilled ones, even if they are not necessarilly big ones) and then rematch Wlad even if Haye were to lose say two of these fights. I think the experience and form would help him massively. It will never happen though, I expect him to shoot for an England based rematch in 12 months, after putting away maybe one opponent with questinable ability. I think this lack of fights is what hurts modern fighters today. The last round of this fight, for some reason reminded me of Dempsey Gibbons where an overmatched opponent asked the champ plenty of questions. Sadly, lack of experience, i think, meant Haye couldnt ask wlad the same (of course as i am sure PP will point out, if Haye tried more he could have been KOd).

And finally, I would like to answer the question of what Haye should have done differently. I see two things. First, the Low left hand, against a long jabber in a fight from distance was never going to give Haye much of a chance. I would have kept the left hand up (or tried to). Although since it isnt Haye's style i can see why he didnt change, but i always thought this give him virtually no chance, and i think i was proved right.

The other thing, and Hayes biggest mistake i think he made, was a failure to engage in the clinch. He just fell to the floor at nearly every clinch. Was the slippery floor playing a bigger role? Maybe some John L style spikes would have helped. Obviously he was worried about Wlad's size wearing him down, but this is where he needed to be. Haye never tried to break the clinch and land punches from what i saw, until the final round. And this meant he could barely land punches.

I also thought that Haye never tried to set up his punches with a body head combination. Actually there were few combination punches. Certainly no solar plexis left hook combos like the likes of Fitzsimmons were famous for.

 

Haye's stamina is indeed terrible. You're the smaller man, you're going to have to infight from time to time, and yes, that means you gotta have great V02 max and the man is just not committed to boxing with any sort of energy saving/concise tactics... He would be infinitely better if he did. He has the athletic potential to do the job, but not the schooling or strategy... and maybe not the mentality?


The uppercut's a tricky one. It's my best punch(right) along with my left hook but it would have been **** if I hadn't read Dempsey's manual, which has great instruction on the punch. The trick is to torque yourself away from the punch while it's going up.... When i started doing this it helped me develop a short fast one with a ton of leverage behind it. Hooks and uppers were pretty natural for me but given my shorter/stocky build i think it makes sense. Honestly the hardest thing imo to develop is genuinely accurate, hard, and clever straight punching. it's easy to throw fast and combination straight punches but doing so while turning over and putting leverage/bodyweight into them is the toughest punch mechanic to develop IMO.

 

Size is where the similarities between Lewis and Carnera ends. Just to reiterate, are you comparing Lewis to Carnera in terms of skills or power?

And you really think Carnera and Vitali is a 50/50 fight? No need for me to comment on that one. The rest of the board will say enough.

 

Powerpuncher, Haye has good head-movement and reflexes. Why couldn't he bob and weave his way inside and throw a single punch at a time? Wlad's feet were very wide apart, and his upper body swaying was very effective against Haye's long counters but he'd be stuck in the mud if he stepped in close.

He had the reflexes, power and handspeed to change up his game for this one fight. He had to. I expected him to pressure and blow his load early if need be. That seems like the way to beat Wlad, and Haye did have the physical tools to do it, moreso than any other challenger out there right now.

 

Just saw the fight via internet link. I had it 9-3 for Wlad. The fight was close enough for the first four rounds. Wlad found his rhythm in round 5, and pretty much swept rounds #5 to #11, though round 9 was close.

Comments: Wlad's defense and footwork in this fight were very good. Blocking Haye's shots with arms and shoulders without showing much give in the block. Wlad's a strong dude. Wlad also made Haye miss badly several times. Wlad reminds me a bit of a matador with his dash and skills on offense and defense, except he also has the size and strength of the bull!

Haye's strategy was to play defense, counter, and try to steal rounds at the very end by throwing wild punches. That and mix in a few foul punches in the clinches. But once Wlad adjusted, Haye had no other game plan. Early in round 11 the ref blew a call and gave Haye the count. If Haye had any will to win, he would have pressed it harder in round 11. Most of the forward moving was and punching was Wlad's. If Haye wanted to win, he had to be willing to throw punches first, and follow up. He did not. Instead Haye opted not to risk much, and lose rounds in exchange for keeping himself fresh for a few chances / lottery types of punches.

I am disappointed Wlad did not knock Haye out. Instead it was an easy decision win that will add to his legacy. At this point I think Byrd, and Chagaev were more impressive name wins. I also think Ibragimov and maybe Brewster were better / more accomplished than Haye is. In fact Peter gave Wlad a much tougher fight the first time around. You could argue Haye is among Wlad's 5-6 wins, but not among his best 3 wins without a clear rebuttal.

PS: I wonder what Haye's corner was telling him?

 

"Don't sweat it mate, you've got 8 figures in the bank?"

 

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Boytsov has the ability to do almost every skill/tactic that you pointed out. Povetkin probably checks off most on the list after him imo.

 

I agree with you here.

Haye was essentialy trying to beat Wlad on the outside, and it was never going to work. That is what I was thinking all through the fight. It was simply a bad strategy.

Sombody like Jack Dempsey would have come in low and got inside. Whether or not this strategy would have worked, it would have forced matters verry quickly.

I do think that Haye can improve if he hangs around.

 

Chagaev didn't even try to get past Valuev's jab and stay there, let alone against Wlad. You can't slip the jab and just stay there. You need to press forward. But this isn't what these type of fighters are about. That doesn't mean they didn't try, but they certainly weren't right in tactics... they just weren't comfortable gambling and doing something against their grain. Perhaps even against what they were taught.