If Haye beats Wlad and Vitali back to back is he a top15 HW?

Sanders was 6'4, it was really an in-fight, it was just very fast very big punches, Sanders is much quicker and bigger than those men. Wlad is also better now and most of those men wouldn't get past the jab. Fitz would be stopped early, Dempsey wouldn't get past the jab, neither would Marciano or Frazier imo and if they did they'd eat big punches themselves

Now Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson could beat Wlad

 

I agree with him.

Between Hatton and Haye as a heavy, we've had some of the worst/least talented high profile English fighters ever recently.

 

I don't think any of them get close enough to the current version of Wlad. Perhaps Dempsey or Frazier could do it against the version that fought Sanders. The Wlad 2.0 is a much better at exploiting his physical advantages. Haye has a 78 inch reach, was leaping in and still never really hurt Wlad. Sure, he could learn how to better set up his attack but Wlads stab and retreat tactic is working pretty flawlessly lately. It inflates the spacing he already creates with his height and reach. I certainly do not think Marciano and Fitz would stand the remotest chance. Frazier, by sheer will, might be able to make a dent but I would not bet on it. And I think Dempsey would meet the jab too often and be dissuaded. It's not that Wlad is better than these guys in a historical or legacy sense, just their set of tools do not mesh with his.

 

Well, yes, because Haye hadn't EARNED the right to be expected to do much.
All he'd done is talk. Actions speak louder.
I never will understand why so many experienced boxing fans fall for hype and ballyhoo.
Look at what fighters do, not what they say.
Haye had done **** all, so I wasn't expecting him to do much here.
He lasted the distance though, which was better than I had expected.

 

I am sorry, but Sanders was not faster than the guys i mentioned. Bigger obviously, stronger possibly (even probably) but not faster.

I am not convinced that Wlad is better at clinching now. Wathc the sanders fight. he tried to clinch, he just couldnt. This is not to say that i think Sanders would repeat the feat, he just got lucky and connected big.

Wlad has a reach advantage, but people do make too much of it. Marciano for example had a reach disadvantage against every single fighter he fought. So why would a reach disadvantage worry him?

In fact his plan is simple, slip and duck the straight punches, and land when in range and close. No different to what he did in every fight, except that Wlad will try to clinch when he gets in close, it wont stop him from landing before the clinch.

Frazier is a nightmare for Wlad with his short left hooks coming at him all day. Wlad can clinch all he likes (like Ali), Frazier is still going to land. Sure wlad will land big himself, but he will have to defend himself in close.

Fitzsimmons, i agree has the question marks because of his size. But, if we assume he hits as hard as Sanders (he has a better ko record) and he is faster than Sanders and can slip a jab better, then he is going to be able to do some serious damage when he does actually land clearly, which he will do at least a few times. Haye did actually land a couple, and i coudl be wrong, but i doubt he has much if any better reach than Fitzsimmons. I wouldnt necessarilly pick him, but stylistically he is wrong for Wlad.


and one guy who i didnt pick, but who would wear down and destroy Wlad, i am pretty certain is jack Johnson. Wlad would keep the punchers chance, but i see jOhnson fighting safety first, clinching and landing the inside upercut during the clinch at will. I am not sure how Wlad would use his clinch defence to over come that one either, because his arms would be on the outside and leaning on johnson would only open him up to the uppercut. Jack Johnson is a different style to the above guys i picked, but he is a nightmare.

 

Let's remember that the Sanders fight was 8 years ago, basically a lifetime ago as far as a fighter's career.

I don't see Frazier getting close enough, often enough to do the necessary attrition on Wlad. If anything, in recent fights Wlad has shown his chin to be much stouter than advertised and that his earlier stoppages were stamina based. Pace is how Wlad will be beat, not pot-shot counters or tricky feints, but pace, which Frazier had in spades. If you can get him out of his comfort zone and little overexerted and panicky you can hope he will unravel. Unfortunately, Frazier would have to pay a too significant prices to close the gap. "Short left hooks" don't land on this version of WK often and when they do they come at a high price.

And Boilermaker, for the record, Hay has a 7 inch reach advantage over Fitzsimmons... and the guys Fitz was KO'ing were largely barroom brawler middles and lightheavies... and one incompetent tug boat named Dunkhorst....

 

Dempsey punches quite a bit harder than Haye though and other than Haye he likes to back his man up after he landed. He also had amazing headmovement. IMO this will be over in the first two rounds, Dempsey at his best is heaps and bounds better than anyone Wlad faced and stylistical a nightmare for him. I give Wlad only a chance due to his size.

btw. I think if Wlad would face a fighter who managed to perfect fighting small, like Marciano, and would work the body with a lot of heavy handed shots, like Marciano, he will be stopped.

 

This is the same Dempsey who was KO'd in 1 by Flynn, who but for a deliberate disregard for the rules was KO'd by caveman Firpo, who was dragged into monotony and the full distance by lightheavy Gibbons? I don't think I can stretch my suspension of disbelief to those extremes.

 

I agree with that. However, unless he ages dramatically overnight, I don't see any heavyweight beating him the next three years. Povetkin is good but not good enough (anymore), Chagaev was already dominated, Chambers and Thompson dito, Adamek I don't see getting past big brother, and Arreola would start crying in an even earlier round against Wlad.

Frankly, the only one with a chance is Helenius, due to his reach, power and jab.

 

I don't see any basis to say Dempsey punches harder than Haye, he took countless flush punches to put away Willard/Firpo. He scored a few 1 punch KOs but usually against smaller weaker men, Haye's scored plenty of 1 punch KOs over 200lb men himself

Yes someone like Marciano in theory could beat Wlad, but not someone as small as Marciano, maybe a 210lb version like Holyfield

 

Wlad's problem against Dempsey is not really just about the jab. It's obvious that with his huge reach advantage and good lead even a prime Dempsey with intact head movement would have trouble coming. Wlad's real issue is what happens when Dempsey does either manage to tie him up or get inside. Dempsey really shines best when he's right up close. In training and sparring he unleashes lots of heavy quick shots from point blank distance. He knocked out Firpo, Brennan, and Sharkey with short punches at this range. I think if Haye had a similar skill he would have been infinitely more successful against Wlad. In the clinches he'd be enveloping Dempsey in a huggy type clinch Ali style wrapping himself around the guy. The best clinch/close game to use against guys like that is more in the line with what Gibbons did to survive, or what Conn used against Louis, or Bowe against Holyfield. Smothering and exchanging short. Wlad doesn't have an uppercut to catch dempsey coming in and close combat is kind of eventual... So what would he do?

 

Seriously, Haye's not even as good as Firpo.
He lacks heart, he lacks character.
That's how he developed his glass toe.
Haye is a joke.

If Haye isn't a joke, then who was the guy stumbling around falling to his knees every few minutes, and throwing wild looping cricket-bowling punches ?
Who was that guy looking to the referee every round for no apparent reason ?

Who was that sissy with his sock off showing his little toe to the TV cameras ?

I know the guy can punch with power (no real technique), and he proved he could slip enough punches to stink the place out until the fight bell - but he can't fight for ****.
:deal

I suspected it all along. Now EVERYONE should know it for sure.

 

Yeah, exactly the same. Like the Wlad who got TKOed by a journeyman like Purrity or never has beens like Sanders and Brewster and rules over an era of unskilled fat slobs who fold if you give them a mean look.

That game can be played both ways, it´s silly and you know it. We are talking about both at their best.

Has Haye ever took someone out even at the class of Firpo or Willard? Kope he hasn´t. Dempsey has.

Yeah, even someone as small as Haye can. Size here is an advantage for Rocky, Wlad would have to punch downwards thus exposing his chin, getting out of balance, and shortening his reach.

 

"The class of Firpo"

A nobody brought from Argentina and hyped up as a challenger. No boxing skills whatsoever.


A better question: has Dempsey ever beaten someone the class of Ray Austin? He's the freaking rainman!

 

None of them stand a decent chance at all, including Helenius.

Did you miss seeing him struggling with & being rocked by a Shot Peter?

Helenius will just be one big target for Wlad...