Where is Wladimir in the ATG's now?

Of course you can never prove which era would beat the other head to head.

Personaly I think that the Walcott of the first Marciano fight would have run rings round Wlad's opponents.

I think that what is important, is to give a fighter credit if he is beating the best oponents available, whatever you think of the era. That way he is at least doing something measurable.

 

Haye is basically the size of Heavyweights of the past, as Mendoza stated. And Adamek has proven himself against some good (by the era's standards) competition so why should it matter his size? That is like me saying a contender for Dempsy's throne was Greb a Middleweight so Greb must have been shite.

Valuev one of the five best, I'd love to see your list.

Also I never thought Haye was all that in the first place, the media hyped it up.

But Klitschko has beaten the two best non-Klitschko's of the era in Chageav and Byrd. And there isnot one fighter who you can say Wlad never fought, who was a legitimate threat/contender.

Agree.


I think Wlad is an ATG Heavyweight, I would put him at around 10 if I did a list. Hes part of the Heavyweight greats IMO.

Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Dempsy
Louis
Marciano
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Wlad Klitschko

 

Having Dempsey that high is ridiculous (no offense.)

No matter what criteria you can think of, he doesn't even come relatively close to Ali but yet you have him a good bit ahead. Why?

 

Speaking strictly head to head in their prime, I think Wlad would manhandle most of the old time ATG's. He's too good a boxer, too strong, too fast. His jab is too formidable. I'm glad my Dad's not here to hear me say it, but I don't think Louis would have stood better than a slugger's chance.

I don't think Ali had the power to handle Wlad , so I think he wins by brains and skill half the time, and Wlad wins by power and his own brand of brains and skill the other half. I say that even though Ali is one of my ATG personal heroes, and I'd rather watch him and Rocky Marciano box than anyone else.

The HW's have gotten bigger and stronger year after year. Lewis is a prime example of a big, powerful master boxer, truly an ATG. Are Wlad (and Vitali) better than Lewis was in his prime? We'll never know. But I think so.

As for dishing the competition, that is always the way it is in the era of an ATG dominant fighter. Look how Haye has gone from the heavyweight division's Saviour to just another bum after losing to Wlad. It's like I said about Louis' bum of the month club. In any other era they might have been champs. You ain't gonna get no respect when there's an ATG (or two ATG's who won't fight each other) around to whip everybody's ass.

 

Hey, do you guys believe in Boxer Heaven? If you believe in the other version, with wings and clouds and gates, etc. then you could believe in Boxer Heaven, couldn't you? Probably would be a lot more fun and interesting.

In Boxer Heaven, every boxer who ever fought is there in his prime, and us boxing fans are there, too, in our prime. And God is the matchmaker. He never lets you duck anyone. There are no racial lines. And no brain damage, either.

Ali is there (I know Ali's not dead, but you don't believe you have to die to go to heaven, do you? That doesn't make any more sense than your average fairy tale.) Marciano is there, Dempsey is there, Foreman too. George Chuvalo is there. Ray Robinson, Archie Moore.



And they get to fight all day, they get better and better every fight. There is no such thing as fear.

 

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Please don't use the blue font, Armstrong. It could make us all blind.

 

Yeah yeah I hear ya. I rank Wlad around the 15th spot now anyway, but it's just too obvious to me that the skill level of the 2000's heavyweights has been poor. All subjective I understand (and I give Wlad his due as seen by how highly I rank him, he's beaten almost everyone of note and must be given props) but the quality of the division right there for you to see IMO...I just feel like I have to say it, I can't just close my eyes and pretend like these guys are awesome Chagaev and Haye couldn't even grasp the concept of slipping a punch and then stepping in.

But as for your last point, Wlad has never and will never fight the best fighter of his era in his brother. Not his fault but he's never been tested against the absolute, absolute best of the division. It'd be good for him if Adamek beats Vitali and then squares off with Wlad.

 

Chronological order.

 

15-20 at the very least. Hard to rank active fighters. Definitely not top 10 considering the defeats in his career, and the lack of big names. As McGrain usually says, a lot of what defines a great HW is beating the next best guy out there. Wlad can't cause that guy is his brother.

 

People, H2H and ATG ranking are two totally different things. H2H I think Liston & Holmes would beat him but he's been dominant longer than Liston and his resume isn't that much worse than Holmes'. Like Holmes, it will take a long time for Wlad to be appreciated so it's best to do it after about several years after his career is over. I'm sure within time he'll be in the top 10 if he's not there already.

 

MUCHMOORE - do you give Adamek any chance VS Iron Fist Vitali? I thought Adamek looked canny averagey And shite VS washed-up Old Grant [rocked TA], obese fatty Arreola [hurt TA], And old morbidly obese pikey Bummy McBride [dropped TA].

 

I give him a chance but more because of Vitali's age than anything else.

Adamek really hassn't impressed me at Heavyweight yet but he can chance that!

 

I think he's top 15, for sure. A few more years at the top, plus a win against another great heavyweight, if such a fighter comes along? He might crack the top 10.

As it stands, the current champion IS an ATG, and he's a h2h monster. He's not gonna be one of the legendary names in the heavyweight lexicon that comes to mind when you think "baddest man ever" like Louis and Ali do, but he's still a stud, as is his brother.

 

Wlad is dominant over a division that his trainer described on Sunday as "awful ,reallly awful".

Outside the top 15 .