Primo Carnera is as big as Wlad...

Yet you don't consider it an insult to call Carnera a bum with no skills?

I have drawn criticism for this in the past, but I will say it again. Carnera was a prety darn good technician, arguably better than either of the Klitschko brothers. He did not have their power or fighting mentality, but the guy could box sweetly.

You have to ask what he had that got him as far as he got.

The answer is that he was big and technicaly sound.

 

Primo was a good fighter but did not have the amateur background of Klitschko's or the professional training guidence. I think the Klitschko's are better defensive fighters Primo got hit. Other than Lennox, Bowe and the Klitschko's most men over 6"5 have been sub-par...Willard was a stand-out..Buddy Baer was better than average but even in the 50's Moore and Walcott beat some big guys but they were not in the class of Lewis and the Klitschko's who are the best of the big en with Bowe,Carnara,Willard, and Baer behind them

 

Power-puncher has it right with his strategy against Wlad. But here's where I think he's wrong. I've seen the fight twice.

Haye is actually capable of slipping and bobbing & weaving while coming forward. In fact, he did this many times, often while throwing awkward looping right hands that landed no where near to Wlad. Other times, he bobbed & weaved forward feinted or lunged and got Wlad backing up only to back up and reset at a longer range because he was uncomfortable pressing and fighting on the inside.

Haye talked about how you needed to uncomfort Wlad. He understood Wlad's mentality as a fighter and explained this well in the pre-fight hype. Now, maybe he doesn't have the tools to do the job. I wouldn't disagree with this, but I thought with all his talk that he would at least show or know that he had to alter his style and be a little more aggressive in order to beat and "uncomfort Wlad." I have no idea how he thought countering from a long range with such a low output was going to make him uncomfortable.

Apparently, someone said before Haye pulled out of the first fight that he needed to be like Mike Tyson to beat Wlad. He said all the right things, and still blatantly executed a bad plan. Granted, it was Haye's normal more inclined way to counter off the back foot. What's frustrating is Haye clearly had Wlad backup up at times, having gotten Wlad in a more vulnerable position. He just couldn't push himself to throw caution to the wind and at least be a little more wild and aggressive.

With all the talk, hype, and understood mindset needed to do the task I won't say Haye doesn't have heart. But I am willing to say his gameplan was wrong and with his understanding of Wlad's mindset he should've taken the chance to put himself in an uncomfortable situation by being more aggressive. Wlad doesn't fight nearly as effective on the backfoot, and is uncomfortable counter-punching himself. Because as a fighter he likes to press, jab, and be in control. Haye played right into Wlad's hands.

There was a moment at the end of the 8th or 9th round. Haye did his best sloppy Tyson impression, slipping and moving forward. Wlad lunged forward to clinch and Haye side-stepped and belted him with shots to the back. It was the type of the thing you needed to see more of.

I keep saying it but Haye's best point of attack was not a counter, which he's more akin and comfortable doing. It was a feint/fake left hook/jab and overhand right. Wlad pulled back, reacted and froze and was setup beautiful to the right hand. It was Haye's best point of offense created, and it was a setup attack... not a means of countering. Haye's strategy in and of it self bad, was even worse with the most predictable look for a single shot overhand right counter. There was no variation, no unpredictability.

I made a thread after Haye-Harrison that Haye couldn't lead, therefore he couldn't beat Wlad. I still think stylistically he matches up better against Vitali and would have a better chance, even if it's a slim chance after all.

The only thing I have to ask PP, is how did you give Haye a 30-35% chance if you didn't think he had the tools to press the attack and was only going to try countering of the back-foot from a range? Surely that's a mission impossible, nightmare strategy, style, and gamelpan for Haye to overcome?

 

Carnera is better than generally given credit for. All the "The maffia fixed his fights yo!" bull**** has unrightfully hurt his reputation. All fighters back then had to be tied to the mob to get title shots. I've read stories on basically every 30's boxer to have been in setups to get higher up. What matters is that the fights against name contenders and champions were on the level.

Carnera has compiled quite some nice wins over his career.

I don't think he comes close to Wlad's punching technique or in the footwork department, but he was a solid champion nonetheless.

 

No, I don´t compare them in terms of skill amd power.

The Vitali of today? Yeah, he isn´t much better than Carnera, if at all. The one who beat Lewis would be something entire different.

 

What? :huh

Peak Vitali is a H2H challenge indeed, but don't pretend he beat Old Lewis...

Lewis TKO6.

 

Carnera found his own Manny Steward in the form of Abe Attell.

Before Attell trained him, Carnera had some good boxing moves but he did not know how to use his reach to his advantage. In the second Sharkey fight he played a blinder, drilling Sharkey at range and busting him up on the inside when he got inside.

I think that his power and durability were more like Alexander Dimitrenko than a K brother, but he got prety good technicaly.

 

I agree.. Wlad was defiinitely stunned and bothered, for a brief moment i thought uh oh..... i felt Haye tried to do some things early. But after the mid rounds, seemed just happy to be there.... But to be honest very boring fight, after the mid rounds only ,,got about 50% of what was going on in there.....

 

Carnera was taught/2nded by Attell? Seems like a bit of a strange combination...

 

Not realy.

They had the exact sam friends in low places.

 

People are being far too hard on haye. He had limited options. He doesn’t have the chin or the stamina to push Klit out of his comfort zone with a high work rate because he doesn’t have a high work rate. His only chance was to avoid getting hit and cash in on Klit making a sloppy mistake but that did not happen. wlad keeps things extremely simple and doesn’t make many mistakes. he’s no genius its not rocket science, he is very effective because he uses his size, controls pace and takes away your room by continually having his feet where his opponents feet needs to be.

 

And your basing this on what? Vitali since his comeback hasn't lost more than two rounds vs. Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Johnson, Sosnowski, Briggs, and Solis. I want to point out that five of those fighters were ranked in Ring Magazine's top 10 when they meet Vitali. I happen to think if Carnera at his best fought the same group he is going to lose at least once. In fact I would likley two losses or more.

Vitali of today isn't much better than Carnera? Remember Haye picked Wlad because he felt his chances would for victory would have been greater. Vitali who is nearly 40 would have knocked Haye out.

 

I mean in terms of dimensions, and of course style...

 

If you put Bob Satterfield in with Klitschko, he would have gone do or die for a knockout.

He would probably have got poleaxed, but there is always a chance that he gets through.

That was one choice open to Haye.

 

Superb intelligent post Pete, clearly the best i've read on the subject so far. :deal