If Haye beats Wlad and Vitali back to back is he a top15 HW?

Haye landed a good punch in the 12th, but Wlad took it well. Clinching in the final round against an opponent who NEEDS a KO to win is normal behaviour.

Wlad's reactions to good punches and his clinching and any backward step he takes are all very over-analysed and over-stated, generally.
Too much scrutiny.

 

Maybe the opposition is making Wladimir look worse than he is. They don't offer a challenge. They turn timid very quickly and he does enough to win.

I kind of agree with you on Frazier. But there are no Fraziers around, and that's not Wlad's fault.
If there was a Frazier around, we'd see if Wlad can rise to that challenge.
He's shutting everyone out and knocking most of them out, and all the while it's unclear whether he has higher gears.

I don't particular like his approach either. But it works. And for all his over-caution and lack of variety and workrate, he always ends up shutting his opponent down to doing far less than himself.
I figure he must be very skillful. Just a hunch.

 

Nah, it's Wlad's flinching and jumping back 10 feet with his left hand extended that makes him look bad. I never said he was unskilled.

 

That tactic works a treat. The opponent ends up flailing at at thin air, missing by miles and stumbling around like a fool, Wlad just comes straight back to jabbing them into a pacified state.

"Flinching" is a derogatory way of appraising his reflexes and defensive maneuvering.

He's not my type of fighter either, nor was Lennox Lewis, the last "ATG" heavyweight.
But it's a way of using size and skill to completely dominate the opposition. You simply cannot deny its effectiveness.
Smaller guys like Holyfield and Frazier and Tyson are more palatable to my tastes, but their superiority is debatable, if we're 100% honest.

:good

 

I think this is more the case. Why is it every opponent of his lately has a bad night against him. In a sense he is a spoiler, very hard to look good against. And consider he has only lost a handful of rounds over the last 7 years/14 fights.

I am really enjoying the professional advice future opponents are receiving here, as if no had ever tried to push beyond the jab, feint a hook or go to the body. The next Haye should really hire the Classic Forum for consultation....

 

And unified cruiserweight champion through violent, fast handed knockout wins.

 

if he would have beaten them you still cannot rank him top 15..

 

Which would have been more impressive if he wouldn´t have faced a faded Mormeck and a guy whose chin is worse Norris. If Haye would have gotten some seasoning against opponents who really would have dragged him into deep water his cw achievements would be quite impressive, this way they aren´t really - it would also have helped him against Wlad.

 

He wasn't "hyped" into the challenger role, he EARNED his title shot by winning a tourney and beating a string of legit contenders.

Which of the HW carcasses Haye KO'd can you say the same about?

 

How many of his cruiserweight opponents would have made the heavyweight top 10, or even top 20 ?
He had a total of 2 'world title' victories at cruiserweight.

Firpo beat guys who could probably have been "cruiserweight champions" too.

Haye is better than Firpo in some ways, and worse than him in others.

 

Haye is already in the top 15 .. of punkass bitches.

 

Yeah, but against guys that don't know how to follow it up or press the attack.

Me and my father watched Ali-Frazier III yesterday. I put it on, as well as other HW fights to remind me of quality Heavyweights and to erase the recent shame out of my head. My father commented on how relaxed Ali was in that fight. He said he was like a sponge absorbing Frazier's vicious body assault and punches. It dawned on me, that he was right. Ali's calmness, helped him maintain whatever energy he had to fight Frazier off and to absorb his shots the best he could. It's weird how comfortable he looks taking Frazier's shots well leaning to his right, looking almost vulnerable & hurt from a view to his back.

Wlad, is almost the complete opposite of Ali. He's more tense. He holds for quite a long while after getting hit clean once. And he over reacts to "faux rushes," feints, and attacks. A quality pressure fighter would expose these defencies and flaws in my opinion. At the very least, they would test him. The name of the game in boxing is to always have the initiative. To always be one step ahead of your opponent. Someone like Charley Burley could play tricks on opponents to keep them always guessing, manipulating their movements to counter and create his own attacks. Beating Wlad doesn't take setting traps, which Haye explained after the fight in an interview that he tried to do. It takes the exact opposite. It takes purposeful initiate.

With Wlad's overactive nature, I believe he would be at the mercy of Frazier's and Tyson's attack. Unless he somehow found home early a big right hand that hurt & downed Frazier, forcing some kind of a stoppage. Tyson has the durability to withstand Wlad's assault, and the defense to make Wlad miss and look ponderous. While he no doubt would win in my book, he doesn't have the inside game that Frazier or Dempsey have that would damage Wlad, nor the no holds bar mentality to fight like a best in close quarters.

Yes, he's a very good skilled, effective big man. But he's not half as invincible as his opponents make him appear to be. That's because his opponents haven't been taught, and don't know how to fight him the way that they would need to against him. Essentially, he's beating good smaller versions of himself in a sense. He's a very good, effective fighter, no doubt. I just don't think he's quite nearly as effective as people make him out. That's all...

 

Just for comparison take. Tunney was a lightning fast, boxer-mover. Essentially, the greatest boxer-mover HW since Ali? I don't think technical is so much the issue with Dempsey. At least not as much as you make it out. Remember, guy's like Wlad will look a bit slow and ponderous for earlier HWs that have fight much better speed. Sure, they're bigger, but there's variance of different problems. Not just all out superiority on one spectrum. The question with Dempsey to me is does he have the durability. That's the issue.

As for Haye. Well giving him 3 rounds is generous. Many scored the fight a whitewash. I think you could give Haye 3 rounds, but those rounds in and of it self are close. I remember the 3rd round was probably Haye's biggest round. I'm not sure if you had him winning the 12th based on that one big punch, when Wlad came back. Although, when Wlad holds like that it makes it look like he's more hurt than he may be which validates scoring the round for Haye, I guess that can be argued. Even Adam Booth said Wlad probably won every round, it's just he won by a small margin each time.

A valid concern. Would Wlad's tentative allow for Frazier to have a chance. Again, all these HWs throw a lot of punches. We should throw Foreman out. Not a peak version, and Wlad doesn't throw punches like that. Quarry was banging Frazier back on the inside, something Wlad won't do. Yes, Bonavena caught him. Wlad himself has been down like 13 times in his career... it happens. Frazier with his gloves high, bobbing & weaving forward would offset Wlad's comfort and offensive rhythm. He either fights Frazier off, or tags him hurt enough to stop him. Guys like Ali and Quarry through more varied punches, in less predictable spots. And let's not knock Frazier's defense like he just let you hit his chin. It wasn't that easy. With Wlad's more predictable 1-2 repertoire, and more ponderous speed I think Frazier would look a bit like a defensive wizard at times to be frank.

As did I. Why do you dislike him so much? His style, or just his personality "Shake my hand David, no respect." I love how he mentions class in HW history, and then guys on to mention guys like Tyson and Foreman as if they were saints.

You have to be honest and admit no one has truly tried, though, properly (Except Sam Peter, and come on he's awful). It won't be in and out movement, but backwards movement with Wlad. Unless he stands his ground, and decides to hold forever. Most get passed the jab only to try countering from a distance. Any forward movement Haye earned, he gave back up. It really wasn't that difficult for him to get into a more reasonable range. He just didn't know what to do. And if you mention Frazier's durability. I mean, Haye is a chinny too. I know he didn't take too many chances, but he had chances that he earned that he squandered. I don't see Wlad punching out of those vulnerable look positions. I think Frazier exploits that. Just my view, could be wrong.

Do you not believe that in-fighting is a dying game in boxing? You think Haye had the right tactics to try countering Wlad from a distance? Yes, I know that's Haye's nature so don't respond by saying that. And if you do, you're essentially agreeing with my point that he's fighting guys haven't been taught and wouldn't know how to even beat him.

Funny you mention feinting a hook. Considering when Haye did that he created his best point of offense that had Wlad holding for 20 seconds.

The most lame pressure fighter's he's ever faced, Brewster and Peter and he's 3-1 against them, with one of his wins being a MD. In fights where he looks rather ordinary, elementary, and grabby. Yeah yeah, Wlad's improved tenfolds since then. Ibragimov, Chageov, Haye, Chambers really tried to get passed the jab, or didn't quite know how to even if they wanted to (Chamber's case).

 

Ali would have avoided every single punch of Frazier's if he could have. He would have danced away from every single fighter he ever fought, and kept them all at long range if he could have. And if by chance they come in close, he would have clinched the out of the fight - if possible.

Look at Ali now. Absorbing punches is overrated.

It's not Wlad's fault if his opponents are not testing him. That's the bottom line.

There's a lot going on in a boxing match we don't see from the safe side of the ropes. I think it's wrong to assume that Wlad concedes the initiative, he's probably very much the boss and the initiator at almost all times. That explains how he dominates his opponents.

I'm not fan of his style but I figure he's doing it right.

It's not Wlad's fault that there are no Fraziers, Tysons and Dempseys around. He has no chance to test your theory.

He's fought many of the best fighters in the world and I'm sure none of them have deliberately gone out there to make him look better than he is.
I don't think he looks great but he keeps winning BIG against the best available fighters, and they are not all bums at all.
He's as effective as he is - winning fights by wide margins and knocking most his opponents out.

Like Seamus pointed out, maybe you (and others here) should be training these heavyweight challengers. If you can see what they need to be taught to beat him, then go out there and teach it. Seriously.